Is the RPG Industry on Life Support? (Merged w/"Nothing Dies")

[Telperion]

Try giving the 13 year old what he wants. He doesn't want your touchy feely social game. He doesn't want to explore nuances of character.

He wants to kill things and take their stuff.

Like it or not, this is the essence of D&D.

We could discuss what's at work in the mind of the adoloescent male, but why bother with the psychobabble? It's really very simple.

WOTC gets it. Why can't you?


Wulf

Well, I could, but then the rest of the group would groan with pain, look at me with heart-broken eyes and jump to the next game that offers them something else besides monster hack and infinite character optimization. What I'm trying to offer is something besides clitches and straight-forward action. If I don't do that then I don't see any point in running games.

In the past I have run very high magic, high fantasy, hack fests where entire world where literally blown to pieces and the very cosmos stood in awe of the PCs. I have had enough of those, especially since the current version (3.5) doesn't easily bend itself to describing such epic stuff without making me fall to my knees either in fits of hysteria and/or depression. The system is just too damn heavy to use for epic stuff, so I leave that alone and concentrate on levels 4 - 12: those I can manage without a problem, and even higher level PCs if I'm having a good day.

So, yes, I get that the kid wants to play a hack fest. Been there, done that. What I don't get is how I can offer him a good game without ruining my own fun and, probably, everyone elses along the way?

 

[Umbran]

It showed (if I remember correctly) that the number of people playing a p&p rpg of some kind at least once a month was about 1.5 million.

The information released can be found here, at The Escapist Archive:

http://www.theescapist.com/WotCsummary1.htm

It says that there were about 2.25 million people playing paper-and-pencil (or, in the article's terms "Tabletop RPGS") monthly. I recall the 1.5 million number being how many folks played some flavor of D&D.

 

[Tav_Behemoth]

...the number of people playing a p&p rpg of some kind at least once a month was about 1.5 million. And they show a fairly steady and constant growth. Even if you think that number is a little inflated, like I personally suspect, it shows that the number is higher than most people think and that an awful lot of gamers out there do not buy rpg products of any kind--not even a PH.

Agreed: even if it's difficult to get accurate data on the sales of rpg products, it's even harder to get a sense for how many gamers are still happily mining goodness from the core RPG books they bought years ago and not showing up in stores, online, at conventions, etc. to be counted. And if we construct a model in which new gamers are the most likely to show up on the radar - since they're the ones with an actual need to buy new stuff - and then convert to "dark matter" gamers, it could be argued that the majority of sales of the industry represent new growth.

One thing I found interesting was that it seemed that both the Wizards market research of '98-99 and the CCG data focused only on North America. If this is true, the number of roleplayers in Europe and Japan could magnify that figure by 150-200% (or counteract the inflation that might be present in the original estimate).

Is the implication here that more people were brought in by WEG Star Wars during its run than were brought in by D&D at the same time, or that the D&D wave was and still is the biggest (and continues)? If the former, I'd need that to be proven.

The point that was made at the panel was that most RPGs sell to the same audience as D&D; Vampire and Star Wars were relatively unique in that they attracted some people into roleplaying who were not interested in D&D. The fact that these new waves of players were smaller than the original & continuing D&D waves might just be an inevitable consequence of the fact that many people are interested in both paladins, stormtroopers, and gothic lords of darkness, so there are fewer and fewer people interested in only one aspect of the fantastic & who haven't been reached by some other game.

While I believe this to still be true, and absolutely was once true, with all due respect to Stan! and the others who worked on Pokemon Jr (a cool product), I look at this like a "trick" answer to a trivia question rather than real industry data. How many of these products actually ended up in the hands of a consumer who actually played the game?

Yep, I don't think we need to worry about anyone returning Arcana Unearthed or Masters and Minions because it claims to be fully compatible with the world's most popular roleplaying game, but they couldn't use it in their Pokemon Jr. campaign

 

[philreed]

. . . it's even harder to get a sense for how many gamers are still happily mining goodness from the core RPG books they bought years ago and not showing up in stores, online, at conventions, etc. to be counted.

As an example, I have two groups of friends (one in North Dakota and one in Oregon) that play D&D on a regular basis (and have for 15+ years). Both groups grabbed 3E when it came out but they only stick to the core 3 and they didn't upgrade to 3.5. They use some of my PDF material in their games -- and info from Dragon -- but they tend to not buy new products at all. So out of the 20 or so people I know that play D&D I can count 12-13 that don't buy products.

The number of players out there is impressive. It's the number of players that are also consumers that's low. Which shouldn't be too much of shock since 50% of the fun is creating your own new material.

 

[Psion]

Since this is a hobby, I doubt most busy professionals in their late 20s and 30s want to be bothered with a learning curve of this sort.

I think you need to be honest and put "you" in the place of "most busy professionals."

This busy professional with three kids says you can pry it out of my cold dead hands.

And when I tried to simplify things for my 8-yo daughter by letting her pick class skills and max them, after 1 game, she wanted to know how you REALLY do it. I think that gives the lie to some flabbergasting "learning curve."

To me, it appears that you don't like the structure of the system and are trying to manufacture reasons that other people should dislike it as well.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

So, yes, I get that the kid wants to play a hack fest. Been there, done that.

I bet you enjoyed it, too!

What I don't get is how I can offer him a good game without ruining my own fun and, probably, everyone elses along the way?

Ask him into your game again in 5-10 years.

I wouldn't rob the kid of his own chance to quip "Been there, done that..." when he's all grown up.

Seriously, your game and this kid's enjoyment may very well be mutually exclusive. You're not doing anything wrong, you're just not catering to his tastes.

I don't play Vampire LARP, for example. Doesn't mean the Storyteller¹ is doing something wrong, I just don't have any interest in what he's offering.


Wulf

^{1 Hope that's the right term.}

 

[Akrasia]

I think you need to be honest and put "you" in the place of "most busy professionals."

I have been honest all along...

To quote myself from an earlier post:

"At least that has been the experience of many of my 30+ friends and associates."

and

"...there are many busy 30+ professionals who love all the 3E crunch, and find the time to deal with it"

The fact that other people on these boards, and in this very thread, have frequently expressed similar views suggests that I am not entirely alone here.

This busy professional with three kids says you can pry it out of my cold dead hands.

Hmmm ... that was never really part of my plan. :\

Why is it so hard to accept the possibility that other people's experiences differ from your own? Is it really that hard to comprehend the possibilty that there are many 30+ professionals who have found 3E too slow and time consuming for them, given the other time pressures they face?

(And is this drama queen posturing really necessary?)

And when I tried to simplify things for my 8-yo daughter by letting her pick class skills and max them, after 1 game, she wanted to know how you REALLY do it. I think that gives the lie to some flabbergasting "learning curve."

Ummm ... no it doesn't. Making a character under the guidance of someone who knows the system extremely well does not show that the system is simple. I once made an excellent Rolemaster character in a (relatively) short period of time because the GM in question knew the system so well.

OTOH, during my first 3e campaign, even after 5+ months, arguments over combat rules (oh that accursed AoO!), spell like effects, circumstance modifiers, etc. continually arose in our sessions. We had all learned the new system from the book, and it was slow going. (In case you think we were simply neanderthals, I should mention that our group was composed of a PhD graduate students at a top research university!)

And in any case, my point primarily concerned the heavy amount of prep time that is required to DM 3E -- especially as the characters gain higher levels.

To me, it appears that you don't like the structure of the system and are trying to manufacture reasons that other people should dislike it as well.

Trying to 'manufacture reasons'? Ummm ... no. :\

I am expressing my own views, and those of people I know. The views I have expressed have also been expressed by many people who play rpgs, both on this board and elsewhere. They are not universal -- not by any means.

But I am not some 'lone agent' trying to ruin your fun by 'manufacturing reasons' that will somehow accomplish that...

 

[NewJeffCT]

Since this is a hobby, I doubt most busy professionals in their late 20s and 30s want to be bothered with a learning curve of this sort. :\

In any case, while I don't want to get into an argument here about the strengths and weaknesses of 3e, I would like to correct an incorrect assumption in your reply.

Having run one 3.0 campaign in 2001-2002, and wrapping up a 3.5 one now, I think I have "the hang of it". And I still find it relatively tedious to DM -- especially the prep work and the apparent need for battlemats and miniatures -- even after having mastered most of the rules. Many folks who do read through and 'master' the 3e PHB, etc., still find it involves too much 'crunch' for their time and energy. That's why I'll probably never DM 3e again.

Well, I just turned 38 last week and have been playing since I was in that 10-14 year old age range. I think 3.0/3.5 is the best incarnation of D&D, as the system seems more comprehensive than prior editions. We seem to have far fewer rules disputes than in the past - they were a weekly occurence in 2E days, and they would sometimes get fairly heated. Any rules disputes at all in 3E seem to be few & far between. Now, if I can just find time to take a break from chasing my 21 month old daughter around and actually game regularly...

That said, however, we generally stick to the 3 main core books of the PHB, DMG and MM. I think we have had 1 or 2 prestige classes since 3E came out. Not sure about NPCs, but that is just for PCs in a rather large gaming group. The group DM has a library of 3E/3.5 books that he uses, but the rest of the group mostly uses just the PHB. A few of the guys buy other books just to have them (I tend to buy Kalamar stuff, and I did tip our DM off to Midnight...)

Back in 2E days, the group had a few more books and it was more common for us to have PCs that used "kits". However, other than our group DM, nobody was really loaded down with 80 pounds of books in our 2E libraries.

I'm not sure how "the guys" used 1E, as I didn't join this group until the mid-late 90s.

Our gaming problem is not finding gamers (we can find plenty of those) - it is now that we're all in our 30s, with one guy in his early 40s - we just do not have the time to devote to gaming. Two of us are married with non-gaming wives and we have 3 small children between the two of us. Our group DM had major surgery. The DM's best friend has an odd job that requires him to work alternate Friday nights or Saturday nights. The two guys that can make it weekly are the old time stereotype of geeks: unmotivated geeky types with no social lives.

 

[Psion]

(And is this drama queen posturing really necessary?)

Pot, kettle.

I am expressing my own views, and those of people I know.

As am I.

But I am not some 'lone agent' trying to ruin your fun

No, just the latest is a long line of those determined to tell me I am having badwrong fun.

 

[Lord Judas]

Yes, My books prolly are 'seasoned' from ode de toilet

As a 30 year old programmer with 2 daughters, I didnt find 3e "too time consuming" to learn. Granted, Ive been playing this-and-that forever, but after about 3 sessions I had down the basics. I find its easiest to introduce/learn a new system by playing whatever the "fighter" class is since combat is fundamental to most systems. From there, branch out to the more complex magic using classes. Its worked in D&D and SR. In fact, I DMed the 2nd 3e campaign I was involved in. I *love 3e, but my one gripe is that NPCs are indeed hard to crank out, mostly due to skills. However, for NPCs, the only skills that 90% of them need are "Bluff" "Sense Motive" and "Diplomacy" if they are just 'talkers'. Thanks to templates, I do find it easy to "repaint" monsters for a surprising twist. Sorry, i digressed there.