Is the RPG Industry on Life Support? (Merged w/"Nothing Dies")

[barsoomcore]

They botched the film efforts because Wizards doesn't own the movie rights to the Dungeons and Dragons trademark. Exactly who DOES own them isn't 100% clear to me, but the new film is being produced by Silver Productions (of Joel Silver, of Die Hard fame) and a German company. Silver Productions (or at least a guy from Silver) were involved in the first film, so maybe they own the rights.

In any event, Wizards doesn't own the rights and short of offering whoever does enough money to make them give up on making the movies (and in a world in which even Dungeons and Dragons made money, you know how likely that's going to be), they can't get the rights. They bought TSR knowing that those movie rights were gone gone gone.

 

[Mark]

They botched the film efforts because Wizards doesn't own the movie rights to the Dungeons and Dragons trademark. Exactly who DOES own them isn't 100% clear to me, but the new film is being produced by Silver Productions (of Joel Silver, of Die Hard fame) and a German company. Silver Productions (or at least a guy from Silver) were involved in the first film, so maybe they own the rights.

In any event, Wizards doesn't own the rights and short of offering whoever does enough money to make them give up on making the movies (and in a world in which even Dungeons and Dragons made money, you know how likely that's going to be), they can't get the rights. They bought TSR knowing that those movie rights were gone gone gone.

So, you don't really know who owns the rights, if they can sell them off to another, or if they have any limits on those rights (how many films allowed, how often they can make a film, if it includes animated films, etc.) Do you really know if WotC/Hasbro ever tried to get regain the rights? Do you have any real idea how much it would take, if anything, to regain the rights? For all we know the rights might be only for two movies and close to reverting back to the primary licensing agent. It seems to me that you and I can imagine a lot of scenarios but that neither of us knows for sure what the situation is. I'd be keen to hear from someone who does.

 

[Teflon Billy]

No offense, Barsoomcore, but since when are stewardesses part of the "creative, educated" elite set?

I don't know about "Creative" (though my imagination churns at the notion) but Air Canada requires that their Flight Attendants speak no fewer than three languages and have post-secondary education.

That's more educated than me

 

[Virel]

My .02 on this...

I started playing back in 1980 when I was 16 as did most of my friends. We all stayed with AD&D 1st ed until into our mid-twenties after college. A few of us stayed with the game until about 30 but took a break from it as marriages, careers etc took away the free time. Now at around 40, once again we have time to play AD&D 1st ed again. I expanded to learn how to play D&D 3.0/3.5, the others didn't care to learn about the 3e game.

I'm amazed at the support and variety of books etc. However, I'm even more amazed at the lack of good adventures for 3e. Being a wargamer 1st and a RPG'er 2nd, I don't find 3e complicated. However, to be well versed you have to buy a lot of books, otherwise your behind the times.

Playing 3e is fine as we have a great DM in the 3e group, there are six players and one DM. The game has been going for over a year. However, in my Out of Print 1st ed AD&D game that's been going for four months, we have nine players and one DM. Three of the players are between ages 10 and 14, new to the game. I find it's much easier have more players in the 1st ed AD&D game than it is the 3e one.

In other words, it's easier to get newbies involved with the old school game than the new one. I have yet to talk anyone "new" into trying 3e. Likewise, I've found player retention is outstanding with a well done 1st ed AD&D game. In 1989 we added five adults (all over 30 years old and new to the game) to our 1st ed AD&D group. All of these new adults still play! We did mix in some early 2nd ed stuff to help improve the game.

All I can say is this as a DM, I can fly and do anything I want in 1st ed AD&D as DM without spending a ton of time on it because you only need three book (seven is best) to do the same with 3rd I'd need about ~40 books and much more time.

I think 3rd makes it harder for experienced players to introduce new players to the game than the old edition did. We can have a new 1st ed character rolled up and ready to play within five minutes. With the skills and feats it takes longer with a 3e character. Few groups I know want to wait for a 1/2 hour while a newbie that may not come back (or the group may not want back) is guided thru setting up a character ad hoc.

My four newest players were all picked up ad hoc, roll up a character, jump in play and see if you like it...

 

[Akrasia]

... I don't think the problem is rules complexity. I definitely think we need to try and recruit younger players. The reason a lot of older gamers don't play as much is because of families, kids, and responsibilties. I really think that to keep the industry going, we need to keep getting as much new blood as possible.

I agree with you that rules complexity is not likely to deter younger potential gamers (i.e. gamers with plenty of spare time).

However, rules complexity is, ironically, a problem for many older gamers.

A lot older gamers don't play as much D&D as they would like to precisely because the rules complexity of the current system takes up so much time to master and use (albeit much more so for DMs, especially regarding prep time, than players, but you need DMs to play). The consequence: they can't fit it into their schedule anymore (and hence don't buy anymore books, or miniatures ...).

At least that has been the experience of many of my 30+ friends and associates. Many of these 30+ folk gave 3E a try, and then either abandoned it for another system, or quit gaming altogether, because of the rules system. In my case, I am willing to devote a fair bit of my spare time to this hobby, but I will probably never DM 3E again because of how much 'work' (in terms of 'not-especially-fun' statblock summaries, looking up possible modifiers, etc.) it takes to prep sessions, how slow the game actually progresses in play (especially combat), and the fact that the 'crunchiness' of the system means that IME the game rules are never really in 'the background' during the session. I know from experience that I am not alone in feeling this way, among people in their late 20s and 30s.

So there are actually two distinct RPG audiences out there:

(a.) Those players who like a lot of rules (complexity, variables, 'crunch', or whatever). These players have the time and interest to master all the rules materials out there, will actually make use of it in their games, and enjoy this 'engineering' aspect of the game. I was one of these players, when I was in high-school. The minitatures game might be a very good 'gateway game' for these kinds of players. Once 'adult life' settles in, however, I suspect that many players are no longer interested in complex 'crunchy' systems with plenty of options -- or even if they are still interested, they just don't have the time or energy for it.

Obviously WotC (and other d20 companies) has focused on this group. This makes sense, I guess, since this group resembles the CCG market, and thus is likely both to keep buying new products (as their allowances or part-time jobs permit), and recruit new players.

However, there is a cost, namely:

(b.) Those players who want a coherent, comprehensive, but 'rules lite' (or at least 'less crunchy') system -- a system that covers most/all 'in game' situations, but employs fewer modifiers, variables, etc. -- that does not require as much time to 'master' and 'prep'. A lot of players in their 20's and 30's fall into this category -- they would like to play D&D, but don't want to invest the time and work into it that 3E seems to require.

Focusing on (a.) might make marketing sense, but it is losing out on players with a fair bit of disposable income (b.). In addition, players of type (a.) frequently cease to be type (a.) players once they go off to grad school, or join the workforce...

Obviously (a.) and (b.) are just 'ideal types' -- there are many busy 30+ professionals who love all the 3E crunch, and find the time to deal with it; and many teens who prefer 'rules lite' systems.

But while recruiting 'new blood' is an important goal, so is keeping the 'old blood'. And, as far as I can tell, WotC doesn't seem much interested in the latter. :\

 

[JVisgaitis]

I agree with you that rules complexity is not likely to deter younger potential gamers (i.e. gamers with plenty of spare time).

However, rules complexity is, ironically, a problem for many older gamers.

I can see that. There is obviously no definite answer, but I can tell you the people that stuck with 3e that I know (and I'm close to my 30s *shudder*), have found it to be the best of all the systems. In the beginning, it is tedious and slow, but once you get the hang of it, they will appreciate it even moreso.

I read earlier in the thread something Monte said about not being able to discern the state or size of the industry and I couldn't agree more. As always, Monte delivers an excellent point. Someone also mentioned that the negative comments come from those companies and individuals who have had bad experiences themselves. This also seems to be the case at least from what I've seen at the various cons.

I think the bottom line here is that there are a lot of success stories in the industry like Malhavoc Press, Privateer Press, Green Ronin, Mongoose Publishing, Bastion Press, Eden Studios, Guardians of Order, and a few others. Some things slowed down or came to a halt for RPGs with Mystic Eye, Fantasy Flight, etc. I think the RPG industry will always be here, and the companies that can continue to produce great products will always weather these market shifts.

 

[hong]

I'm not convinced diaglo exists, in point of fact.

I am diaglo.

 

[Akrasia]

I can see that. There is obviously no definite answer, but I can tell you the people that stuck with 3e that I know (and I'm close to my 30s *shudder*), have found it to be the best of all the systems. In the beginning, it is tedious and slow, but once you get the hang of it, they will appreciate it even moreso.

Since this is a hobby, I doubt most busy professionals in their late 20s and 30s want to be bothered with a learning curve of this sort. :\

In any case, while I don't want to get into an argument here about the strengths and weaknesses of 3e, I would like to correct an incorrect assumption in your reply.

Having run one 3.0 campaign in 2001-2002, and wrapping up a 3.5 one now, I think I have "the hang of it". And I still find it relatively tedious to DM -- especially the prep work and the apparent need for battlemats and miniatures -- even after having mastered most of the rules. Many folks who do read through and 'master' the 3e PHB, etc., still find it involves too much 'crunch' for their time and energy. That's why I'll probably never DM 3e again.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Having run one 3.0 campaign in 2001-2002, and wrapping up a 3.5 one now, I think I have "the hang of it". And I still find it relatively tedious to DM -- especially the prep work and the apparent need for battlemats and miniatures -- even after having mastered most of the rules. Many folks who do read through and 'master' the 3e PHB, etc., still find it involves too much 'crunch' for their time and energy. That's why I'll probably never DM 3e again.

Of course the situation is going to be different depending on everyone involved. The two groups that I know despised 3e and swore they would never go back citing your same reasons. Having played for a while, they really got into it and now love it. Though they are more of the crunch types. Prep work for a DM might be more involved, but I find that looking stuff up at the table is greatly lessened and the sessions go much smoother for me. Let's just agree to disagree. . . Oh, I will say that character creation did scare the $#*& out of most if not all of them.

 

[Tav_Behemoth]

Okay, my son's in bed now! Here was the seminar & its panelists as scheduled:

SEM00028 The Game Industry: Where We’re Going

3:00pm – 4:00pm, 201: A

The Future! Four people who are charting it now let us know what it looks like from up there at the front of the boat. – Tavis Allison, Jeff Tidball, Stan!, Sean Reynolds, Bruce Harlick

However, there were several more of us up there than listed here; definitely Kenneth Hite and James Ernst, and maybe some others I'm not remembering - it was a crowded panel!

The overall impression I expect people got from the panel was that the hobby game industry was going the way of wargaming or model railroading: something that was well past its peak in popularity, that continued to appeal to many devoted fans, but wasn't gaining new ones fast enough to replace those that drifted away, so that the core audience was graying and dwindling.

The unarguable point was that there is no holy writ that there must be a roleplaying/board game/CCG industry, and that there are many forms of entertainment and genres of art which once flourished but now

As for where panelists got their numbers: no PowerPoint presentations from suits of any kind. Kenneth Hite has shown his work in estimating the size of the RPG business in his yearly State of the Industry columns, but I didn't hear any hard facts to support the contention that younger fans aren't getting into gaming like they used to (and this wasn't as obviously true at SoCal as it was at Indy; see below).

Some interesting observations:

- The three great waves of new players were linked to D&D, West End Games' d6 Star Wars RPG, and Vampire. (It was noted that two out of the three of these were unplayable as written - perhaps the drive to figure it out & create your own workable game out of a fascinating-but-incoherent mess was part of the appeal?) But each of these new waves was smaller than the first, and the gloomy forecast was that there would never again be a year like 1981, when every college dorm and nuclear submarine had a D&D campaign to call its own.

- The best-selling RPG of all time is believed to be Pokemon Jr., a RPG designed for 6-to-8 year olds which sold relatively poorly in normal channels but went like hotcakes when it was discounted at WalMart. Word has it that this was part of WotC's plan to grow the industry by developing a series of RPGs designed for successively older kids, released on a schedule so that there'd always be a new game with a popular license designed to not only appeal to that age group but to match their cognitive development. However, the plug was pulled on this long-term plan after Pokemon Jr. performed below expectations.

- Peter Adkinson definitely focused on bringing younger gamers to Gen Con So Cal: they sponsored field trips for several elementary, middle, and high-school classes, and there were quite a few pre-teens and families with children on the exhibition hall. I ran a demo game for a pair of ten-year-old boys who remi nded me of me when I was their age, and my inner child was deeply gratified when they were impressed enough to buy the minotaur book!

- Some of the blame (self-accusation?) was placed on designers: that we're interested only in making the kind of games we ourselves like, so that we're becoming increasingly insular and have less to offer younger players.

In response to this last, I pointed out that many of the graying members of the "greatest generation" of D&D were reaching the age where we were having kids of our own; being in this situation myself, I've been very interested the threads I'd seen here at EN World about people who had run their first game for their children. This led to a call for all gamers to have more children for the good of the hobby! Less ironically, though, I do think this will force us to think about what the essential genius of roleplaying is, how to transmit it to the next generation, and that this alone might be enough to spark a renaissance that keeps our hobby vital and growing.

The future is our children; it's also a place in which we ourselves will get inexorably older and where everyone who's gone before has wound up dead. True as these things are, they'll get a gypsy fortune-teller nowhere, so in my next post I'll focus on the wild blue-sky ideas!