Is the Spiked Chain Fighter really that Cheesy?

[Zelc]

Also, for others: Lockdown builds without the spiked chain are obviously very viable. However, other feats and/or class abilities being cheesy does not prevent the Spiked Chain being cheesy.

The fact that perhaps one of the most optimized lockdown builds doesn't think the spiked chain is worth the feat should show that the spiked chain isn't as hot as you think it is.

ETA: I'd like to add we're not just talking about viable here. We're talking about highly optimized builds not needing or wanting the Spiked Chain.

 

[Felix]

I still disagree. Look at your analysis again when you throw Enlarge Person into the picture. An Enlarged person does not have the easy "just a 5-foot step and the enemy will be in reach" solution that you posit as generally applicable above.

Benefits: the Enlarged person has a higher Strength, a bonus to tripping, a bonus to disarming, a bonus to grappling, bigger damage dice, and his increase in reach means that opponents will be further away from him when he trips them.

Costs: if the assailant is Medium-sized or smaller, the Enlarged person must withdraw 10' to bring the assailant into his weapon's threatened area; lower AC; lower Dex; lower Attack bonus.

Posit: still generally acceptable. With all those bonuses, you'd better be able to keep him Prone. That or your dice hate you.

Also, for others: Lockdown builds without the spiked chain are obviously very viable. However, other feats and/or class abilities being cheesy does not prevent the Spiked Chain being cheesy.

This is true. The existence of a Half-ogre Rogue/Warblade/Fighter/Monk/Crusader/WitchSlayer does not prevent a Maug Fighter/Warmind/ExoticWeaponMaster from being milk derivative. Nor does equipping said cheese-Maug with a weapon transfer its cheesyness to said weapon.

If the weapon is broken, it should be easier to demonstrate than your trotted out Maug. (And considering that Glitterdust and Fireball are still its weak points at ECL 10, it doesn't demonstrate it hardly at all.)

But perhaps it is easier to demonstrate and I've just been focusing too much on the race. You suggested:

Okay, here's how to make a NPC tripmonkey disarmer to make your party run home to mama in tears:
- Be Large
- Be Strong
- Be Dextrous
...
- Take Combat Reflexes
- Take Improved Trip
- Take Improved Disarm
This necessitates some levels in Fighter. If you still have levels left over, put them in Exotic Weapon Master for the Exotic Reach stunt and the extra damage stunt.

Shall we try this again without the killed-by-two-Fireballs-Maug?

Make me run home to mama.

 

[green slime]

Its obviously not the Spiked Chain that's broken in this thread...

 

[Tetsubo]

The point isn't whether you'd allow this build in a campaign or not, the point is lockdown builds don't require having a spiked chain. This build is perhaps the most optimal fighter lockdown build, and it does so with a longspear. If the spiked chain is as broken as you say, why did the well-known optimizer behind this build choose not to use it?

And if you don't allow the multiclassing, would you allow a Fighter 20?

Look at the illustration below.

I don't need any other excuse in saying that the Spiked Chain is blatantly absurd.

 

[green slime]

Look at the illustration below.

I don't need any other excuse in saying that the Spiked Chain is blatantly absurd.

Have you looked at any fantasy art lately?

Read any spell descriptions lately?

Read much feat descriptions?

DnD seems to thrive on the blatantly absurd.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Look at the illustration below.

I don't need any other excuse in saying that the Spiked Chain is blatantly absurd.

Heh.

I've always felt that the graphic depiction of the spiked chain was the only really good reason for not liking it.

Generally, though, when I think spiked chain (and used one on a character where it wasn't nearly as cool as people might've thought), I think kusari-gama-ish, not the pic you posted.

Brad

 

[Zelc]

I thought we were talking about whether the spiked chain is cheesy, not whether the spiked chain is realistic.

 

[Felix]

I thought we were talking about whether the spiked chain is cheesy, not whether the spiked chain is realistic.

Trotting out that picture is Tetsubo's reflex when people present arguments that the Spiked Chain is fine mechanically.

Tetsubo, are there any other picture from the PHB of things that are absurd? Or is the Spiked Chain the only one?

 

[Deset Gled]

All of the evidence presented in this thread has basically lead me back to the same oppinion I had before it: reach weapons can be abused, tripping can be abused, and some D+D weapons don't make practical sense.

The spiked chain is no different, mechanically, than a guisarme used with Improved Unarmed Strike (or armor spikes, etc). You have reach, you can trip, and you still threaten adjacent squares. There are a number of different ways to achieve this without the spiked chain, all with minor variations in damage, crits, etc. The spiked chain is no worse than any other trip weapon with reach.

The spiked chain is no different, conceptually, than a two-bladed sword or a mercurial greatsword. These are weapons made to be "cool", to hell with the realism. There may be some miniscule amount of realism that they're based off of, but in the end they're just abstract weapons used for flavor.

The real problem is that the spiked chain combines these two unrelated issues in one weapon, so you effectively have twice as many people complaining about it.

 

[Tetsubo]

I thought we were talking about whether the spiked chain is cheesy, not whether the spiked chain is realistic.

To me it is cheesy simply because it is a practical absurdity.

But if you would like a mechanical absurdity, you can use a Spiked Chain underwater because it is a Piercing weapon. There you go, mechanical absurdity.