Is the Spiked Chain Fighter really that Cheesy?

[Tetsubo]

Trotting out that picture is Tetsubo's reflex when people present arguments that the Spiked Chain is fine mechanically.

Tetsubo, are there any other picture from the PHB of things that are absurd? Or is the Spiked Chain the only one?

There are lots of poor illustrations in the PHB of weapons. The Spiked Chain is just the most egregious. It is proof that the game designers and illustrators don't own any weapon reference books and have never actually held a weapon in the hands. The Spiked Chain, as depicted in the PHB, is unusable.

 

[Tetsubo]

Here are some examples of chain weapons that aren't absurd.

Why couldn't the game designers just used real world versions rather than create something silly?

 

[Felix]

Why couldn't the game designers just used real world versions rather than create something silly?

If the artist who drew that PHB spiked chain had instead portrayed a Spiked Manrikigusari, exactly what complaints would you have about the mechanics?

Would you label it absurd because it does only Piercing damage instead of Piercing/Bludgeoning?

 

[Tetsubo]

If the artist who drew that PHB spiked chain had instead portrayed a Spiked Manrikigusari, exactly what complaints would you have about the mechanics?

Would you label it absurd because it does only Piercing damage instead of Piercing/Bludgeoning?

If the artist had presented it as a Piercing/Bludgeoning design AND removed all of the projections from the links themselves, yes I would find it both more mechanically balanced and less visually absurd. But it is shown as having those silly projections on the links again and again and again in official illustrations. Once is a mistake, a dozen times and it is policy.

But the item is still the "kitchen sink" weapon of the game. The designers created a combat system that had numerous elements to reflect combat. Then they created a weapon that goes around those limitations. I see the Spiked Chain as a meta-item. An item designed to skirt the rules themselves. For that reason alone it is absurd and has no place in the game.

There are lots of real world chain weapons that they could have included in the PHB. But two of them are the Spiked Chain and the Dire Flail, the later is only slightly less silly than the former.

You will note that chain weapons (while vastly cool) never seem to play much of a role in actual, real world combat. If a Spiked Chain were really as uber-l33t as the rules show it to be, every army in history would have outfitted troops with them.

The one weapon that did have the biggest role in history, the spear, never seems to get a lot of play in D&D. An example was given in this thread. But by and large I have rarely seen a lot of spear builds. Yet the spear probably decided more battles in history then any other melee weapon.

 

[Felix]

If the artist had presented it as a Piercing/Bludgeoning design AND removed all of the projections from the links themselves, yes I would find it both more mechanically balanced and less visually absurd.

This is the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest that the Spiked Chain would become more balanced if an ability were added to it.

I see the Spiked Chain as a meta-item. An item designed to skirt the rules themselves. For that reason alone it is absurd and has no place in the game.
...
There are lots of real world chain weapons that they could have included in the PHB.

A Spiked Manrikigusari looks like it can hit someone 10' away, and you can hold it in the middle of the chain to hit folks 5' away.

It can wrap around weapons and limbs, so it can disarm and trip; the Spiked Manrikigusari can do this too, yes?

You can use the weight of the hammer to swing the chain instead of your own muscles, but doing so is only easy for folks who are Dexterous, neh?

Perhaps they looked at the chain weapons, saw they should be able to take advantage of the rules they'd created for doing things in combat that you should be able to do in combat, and voila!, you have the Chain, Spiked. It doesn't have to be a meta-game weapon to do all of those things. Has your opinion of the illustration colored the suspected origins of the weapon's mechanics?

You will note that chain weapons (while vastly cool) never seem to play much of a role in actual, real world combat.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain. Most people don't spend their only feat on that. Shoot, I spent my feat on Skill Focus: Time Wasting.

The one weapon that did have the biggest role in history, the spear, never seems to get a lot of play in D&D. An example was given in this thread. But by and large I have rarely seen a lot of spear builds. Yet the spear probably decided more battles in history then any other melee weapon.

And the crossbow is a simple weapon while the longbow is a martial weapon. Historically the crossbow could be easily wielded by peasant armies while the longbow took years of training. Do you dismiss the exact same relationship between the spear and the spiked chain?

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Also, I'm right there with you on the Dire Flail.

 

[Tetsubo]

This is the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest that the Spiked Chain would become more balanced if an ability were added to it.


A Spiked Manrikigusari looks like it can hit someone 10' away, and you can hold it in the middle of the chain to hit folks 5' away.

It can wrap around weapons and limbs, so it can disarm and trip; the Spiked Manrikigusari can do this too, yes?

You can use the weight of the hammer to swing the chain instead of your own muscles, but doing so is only easy for folks who are Dexterous, neh?

Perhaps they looked at the chain weapons, saw they should be able to take advantage of the rules they'd created for doing things in combat that you should be able to do in combat, and voila!, you have the Chain, Spiked. It doesn't have to be a meta-game weapon to do all of those things. Has your opinion of the illustration colored the suspected origins of the weapon's mechanics?


Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain. Most people don't spend their only feat on that. Shoot, I spent my feat on Skill Focus: Time Wasting.


And the crossbow is a simple weapon while the longbow is a martial weapon. Historically the crossbow could be easily wielded by peasant armies while the longbow took years of training. Do you dismiss the exact same relationship between the spear and the spiked chain?

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Also, I'm right there with you on the Dire Flail.

The illustration in the original 3.0 PHB caused me to laugh out loud. Literally. Only later did I begin to dislike it for mechanical reasons.

By making it Piercing/Bludgeoning you avoid the underwater use issue. If you were to describe it as a two-handed weapon that does not allow a 1.5 Strength bonus that would help. It should also be noted that while it could be used at both 5' and 10' ranges but not in the same round. I'd probably make it 1d6 damage. It is rather small and light. Your idea of a Spiked Manrikigusari has merit.

Both the crossbow and longbow are highly effective weapons. One just takes decades to master. The Spiked Chain *as depicted in the PHB* is useless. It does not have the lethality or usefulness of a longbow. Longbows decided who ruled kingdoms. Spiked Chains just cut cheese.

Your idea for the Spiked Manrikigusari is good.

For a martial weapon that does many of the Spiked Chains roles (and is far more realistic) look at the Heavy Flail.

For an exotic chain weapon, file off the description of the Dire Flail. Describe it as a chain with heavy weights at either end. Essentially a Heavy Manriki-gusari. Replace the plain weights with spiked ones and you have a Piercing/Bludgeoning version. A "holy water sprinkler" with style...

All of these ideas (yours and mine) are better than how the Spiked Chain was presented in the PHB. I don't have an issue with exotic weapons. There are literally tons of examples of them in the real world. Which is one of the reasons I got so annoyed when the game designers came up with such a silly idea. It was like they stepped over a dollar to pick up a dime. If they had invested a $100 in weapon reference books, this could have been avoided.

I figure I have $1000+ invested in such reference books...

 

[Felix]

Hypothetical:

The PHB, instead of the current picture, presents this as the spiked chain. Your reaction?

If you were to describe it as a two-handed weapon that does not allow a 1.5 Strength bonus that would help. It should also be noted that while it could be used at both 5' and 10' ranges but not in the same round. I'd probably make it 1d6 damage.

With all these addendums and caveats, do you still think it is mechanically worth an extoic weapon feat? Few enough players I know take the chain as a weapon as-is; lowering the damage, weaknening the range, and removing the strength bonus wouldn't help sell the thing.

While I don't see a mechanical need for it, you instead of completely removing the 1.5 Str bonus, you could remove it in the event the weapon is Weapon Finessed. Since they're not using their Strength to accack, they ought not get an extra bonus; but leave the option open for Str-based characters.

While that would make sense, I think it's a needless complication that doesn't add anything beneficial to the weapon.

 

[green slime]

The weapon as is, isn't worth a feat. IMO, it really needs something else added to it to justify the cost.

But then again, I think none of the Exotic weapons are really worth the cost of a feat.

 

[werk]

Here are some examples of chain weapons that aren't absurd.

Why couldn't the game designers just used real world versions rather than create something silly?

I thought the OP discussed this with you on the first page?


Repeating yourself could be a sign of senility.

 

[Tetsubo]

Hypothetical:

The PHB, instead of the current picture, presents this as the spiked chain. Your reaction?


With all these addendums and caveats, do you still think it is mechanically worth an extoic weapon feat? Few enough players I know take the chain as a weapon as-is; lowering the damage, weaknening the range, and removing the strength bonus wouldn't help sell the thing.

While I don't see a mechanical need for it, you instead of completely removing the 1.5 Str bonus, you could remove it in the event the weapon is Weapon Finessed. Since they're not using their Strength to accack, they ought not get an extra bonus; but leave the option open for Str-based characters.

While that would make sense, I think it's a needless complication that doesn't add anything beneficial to the weapon.

That picture is still absurd. Look at each link in the chain. The links are rectangular. At each corner of the rectangle is a projecting "spike". There is no way to wield such a weapon without damaging your own hands. That is a design flaw.