Is the Spiked Chain Fighter really that Cheesy?

[Set]

The weapon as is, isn't worth a feat. IMO, it really needs something else added to it to justify the cost.

But then again, I think none of the Exotic weapons are really worth the cost of a feat.

True that. That uber +1 crit mod on a Kukri is so not worth a Feat over a Dagger.

Normal (spike-less) Chains (same rules, but 1d6 B damage) are kinda neat, and I'd allow them to switch grip from double weapon to reach weapon, but not both at once.

And I'd allow Quarterstaffs to be Finesse weapons, 'cause that sounds fun, too.

I thought the OP discussed this with you on the first page? Repeating yourself could be a sign of senility.

Agree or disagree with Tetsubo. Name-calling and snark got boring a long time ago.

 

[Tetsubo]

I thought the OP discussed this with you on the first page?


Repeating yourself could be a sign of senility.

This thread has gone on long enough that might be a possibility.

 

[werk]

Agree or disagree with Tetsubo. Name-calling and snark got boring a long time ago.

I don't think I was...I was just trying to point out that we've been down this road before...in this thread.


http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3576479&postcount=47

 

[Umbran]

Repeating yourself could be a sign of senility.

So could forgetting the basic rules of politeness of the messageboard upon which you've over three thousand posts, hm?

I will remind you all, in case anyone else is feeling... similarly forgetful - you are to be respectful of your fellow posters, and their opinions.

 

[Tetsubo]

Hey, I'm a tolerant guy. I don't mind if someone points out that I might have repeated myself. Lots of threads, it's bound to happen.

What I'm not tolerant of is the Spiked Chain...

 

[Felix]

That picture is still absurd. Look at each link in the chain. The links are rectangular. At each corner of the rectangle is a projecting "spike". There is no way to wield such a weapon without damaging your own hands. That is a design flaw.

What other weapons in the PHB do you consider absurd? Because surely the Dire Flail and the Spiked Chain cannot be the only flawed-design weapons if this is the standard you hold all fantasy weapons to.

Are any monsters flawed in design because they'd be improbable?

How about magical spells? Anything absurd there?

 

[green slime]

What other weapons in the PHB do you consider absurd? Because surely the Dire Flail and the Spiked Chain cannot be the only flawed-design weapons if this is the standard you hold all fantasy weapons to.

Are any monsters flawed in design because they'd be improbable?

How about magical spells? Anything absurd there?

Tried that tack earlier, didn't seem to have much effect, I'm afraid. DnD thrives on the improbable and the impossible. Reality doesn't have much to do with fantasy at all.

But Tetsubo is perfectly correct. It is an improbable weapon. I just don't have a problem with the weapon being unrealistic. Its not like it is seeing a lot of use in the campaigns I run anyway. And Floating balls with eyestalks that shoot rays of death and antimagic are also impossible, and unrealistic.

Like Tetsubo, I would like to see more reasons for spears to be used.

 

[Felix]

Tried that tack earlier, didn't seem to have much effect, I'm afraid. DnD thrives on the improbable and the impossible. Reality doesn't have much to do with fantasy at all.

Tetsubo comes down pretty hard on the Spiked Chain in particular, and the artwork seems to have as much, if not more, to do with his displeasure than the mechanics. Since at the gaming table the visuals I get come from my imagination and the DM's descriptions, I don't see why the PHB picture has to be that much of a sticking point.

But Tetsubo is perfectly correct. It is an improbable weapon.

As depicted? Oh, yeah. Totally. But he seemed mollified by the idea of calling the spiked chain, and drawing the thing like, a Spiked Manrikigusari. And the mechanics of the Spiked Chain could make sense for a Spiked Manrikigusari. So if the mechanics aren't terribly objectionable, and the real world provides a reasonable visual substitute for that silly thing in the PHB, can't the weapon be accepted?

Like Tetsubo, I would like to see more reasons for spears to be used.

Spears were weapons of choice for a very long time because it gave poorly trained and poorly armored conscripts a cost-effective way of being a significant presence on the battlefield. But a party of PCs is exactly *not that*: relative to the great majority of the population, the PCs are very well trained and very well equipped. There may be a big difference to the treasurer of a kingdom between arming the rank and file with spears instead of ranseurs, but those economies of scale won't be realized by the PCs because they are individuals instead of massed units.

That being said, spears should have a place in the game. They're cheap and rudimentary; primitive societies are going to have spears as a weapon of choice. Peasants will have pole-arms to fight with that they'd otherwise be using for agricultural purposes. Guardsmen will have spears at castle doors. You'll see spears in D&D everywhere that their Simple Weapon status and their 5gp cost matters to whomever is paying for them to be made.

 

[Tetsubo]

What other weapons in the PHB do you consider absurd? Because surely the Dire Flail and the Spiked Chain cannot be the only flawed-design weapons if this is the standard you hold all fantasy weapons to.

Are any monsters flawed in design because they'd be improbable?

How about magical spells? Anything absurd there?

Weapons exist in the real world. Monsters and D&D style magic spells...? Not so much.

I expect weapons to behave as they would in the real world. I see that as a very low standard.

Did you look at the rapier illustration? Looks like what a five year thinks a rapier looks like.

Illustrations can make or break a gaming book for me. Weapon illustrations doubly so.

The Spiked Chain illustration shows that the person that designed the weapon and the person that drew the image don't have a firm grasp of what an actual implement of destruction looks like. I have a problem with that. Weapons are a HUGE part of a fantasy game. How you present that part should matter.

 

[Felix]

The Spiked Chain illustration shows that the person that designed the weapon and the person that drew the image don't have a firm grasp of what an actual implement of destruction looks like.

Assuming the person who designed the weapon didn't have the Spiked Manrikigusari in mind.

Youi're right: the picture of the Spiked Chain in the PHB is silly. And maybe I play my games on smaller tables or with more people than you do, but we never have room to lay our books out open on the table; they're always stacked somewhere within reach. I spend a lot more time in game visualizing my character than I do checking out the PHB illustrations. It would be as if someone who didn't like the picture of Tordek proceeded to argue that the Fighter was an absurd class.

Bad picture? Check. Should the illustrator be smacked upside the head with a cluebat? Yup. Does an artist's bad depiction ultimately matter? Not if you can get over it and visualize it for yourself. And in this case, you don't need to do much visualizing. Want peircing damage? Add spikes. Spikes make everything cooler.