D&D 3.x Is the spiked chain too good? (3.5)

[CRGreathouse]

I don't have a problem with them. They take a feat to use, deal poor damage, and require enough abilities (Int & Dex) that user's Str is also pretty low.

They could be a problem in high ability score games, though. The only one I've ever seen was an NPC who needed Weapon Finesse (poor Str), reducing feats further.

 

[Korak]

Hi all, I am new hear so hopefully this isn't a topic that has been played out repeatedly before. In our group there is a character that has built his entire character around the use of the spiked chain. Serious min / max case. From the resaerch into the rules so far, there is no real weakness or drawback to using this weapon despite it's obvious reach advantage. The fact that it is not subject to the "drawback" in regards to reach and adjacent hexes makes it seem like well, a super weapon.

Is there a drawback to using this weapon? What options are open to the gm to compensate for this without punishing the rest of the group? And one thing that had gotten to the potn of rediculosu was combination of improved trip at extended range (reach), then AoO everytime they tried to get up, tripped again. The scenario really trivialized an encounter with some rather powerful creatures.

any feedback on this would be appreciated.

It is pretty much a finesse-able heavy flail with reach, but it requires a feat to use. It is a good choice, but maybe a bit too good, but I would really hesitate to call it broken. In a high stat campaign with tons of humanoid opponents, it's a darn powerful option. In a more normal campaign where the main bad guys are large magical beasts, formians, dragons, etc... not so good. I think a good compromise would be to require the wielder to spend a move action, or perhaps sacrifice an attack from his full attack to switch grips between threatening 10' vs 5'.

 

[Grog]

It's absolutely not too good.

Compare it to the guisarme. Base damage is the same. The guisarme has a better crit multiplier. They can both be used for trip attacks. The spiked chain gets a +2 to disarm rolls. The spiked chain requires a feat to use. They both can strike opponents 10' away.

Even if you believe that the +2 to disarm rolls is equivalent to an additional crit multiplier (I don't; crits usually happen much more often than disarms), you still have to spend a feat on the spiked chain, while you don't with the guisarme.

Which leaves the ability to attack adjacent opponents as the only point in the spiked chain's favor. And 95% of the time, this isn't an issue. If you have a guisarme, and someone moves right next to you, just 5' back and swing away. On the extremely rare occasions where this isn't an option, the spiked chain has an advantage, but this happens so rarely IME that it's more than balanced out by the extra feat required for the spiked chain.

 

[James McMurray]

People focus too heavily on the tripping aspect of the spiked chain when they try to explain why it isn't overpowered.

Even a spiked chain with just EWP: Chain is nasty. Combine it with combat reflexes and fact that your average damage is 2.5 points lower disapeears in light of the added AoOs you get and the fewer attacks you take from reach creatures because you don't have to close.

Tripping is just a fringe benefit, as is the bonus to disarming. Finessibility is almost a non-ssue, because two-handed weapon users should be maximizing strength, not dexterity.

The spiked chain is nasty, but it really becomes dangerous when your party wizard or cleric casts enlarge person on you.

They take a feat to use, deal poor damage, and require enough abilities (Int & Dex) that user's Str is also pretty low.

There is nothing int he spiked chain that requires intelligence or exterity. I you want to fully maimie your use of it you'll want Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. But they are certainly not neessary in order to benefit from a weapon that gives reach both up close and far, something that can normally only be gained via size increase.

Spiked Chain is very good in certain circumstances. In other circumstances (say against a large or larger creature with 4+ feet) it's not really much better than a longsword.

Except that it deals more damage, and has reach so you don't have to close with that large creature and take an AoO (quite possibly an AoO with Large and In Charge, which will negate your ability to attack that round, and leave you open to a ful attack followed by a 5' step away, negating your ability to attack next round as well.

 

[Christian]

I don't have a problem with them. They take a feat to use, deal poor damage, and require enough abilities (Int & Dex) that user's Str is also pretty low.

They could be a problem in high ability score games, though. The only one I've ever seen was an NPC who needed Weapon Finesse (poor Str), reducing feats further.

You can do decently with it as a monk. Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes can be had for free, so it's just the EWP (and Improved Disarm if you really want it). You don't need high Int for this (unless you want both Imp. Trip and Imp. Disarm) or really excessive Dex (even the couple of extra AoO's for a 14 are very helpful).

My biggest beef with the 5'/10' reach thing is the interaction with the v. 3.5 Enlarge Person spell. This can get ugly ...

 

[Creamsteak]

I'm curious about spiked chain as a reach weapon... well reach weapons in general:

Is 3.5 any different than 3.0 on reach weapons being treated as ranged weapons for purposes of cover created and an opponent being in melee? That is, in 3.5 does a person using a reach weapon "around" or "through" an ally who is engaged in melee with the enemy suffer the -8 penalty to hit?

 

[Scion]

Except that it deals more damage

Does more damage? More like pretty close damage. 2d4 vs d8 isnt exactly a huge amount of damage. Especially since the longsword has a much better crit range.

Basically with the spiked chain the user pays a feat in order to gain 5' reach and do less damage. The comparison with the flail and the polearm are good ones.

Plus, at higher levels the only benefit (the reach) starts to matter less and less. One extra attack from an aoo is generally not a huge deal. It is very easy to negate reach or negate aoo's.

Tossing in extra feats to make it better can be done for any weapon, some have better ones and others worse. Although overall they are pretty even.

Overall the weapon is nice, and has good flavor, but is pretty well in line with all of the other weapons. The extra feat cost is pretty big, the low damage for a two handed weapon isnt so great either, along with the fact that a decent strategy with a polearm gets you most/all of the benefits without any of the penalties.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm curious about spiked chain as a reach weapon... well reach weapons in general:

Is 3.5 any different than 3.0 on reach weapons being treated as ranged weapons for purposes of cover created and an opponent being in melee? That is, in 3.5 does a person using a reach weapon "around" or "through" an ally who is engaged in melee with the enemy suffer the -8 penalty to hit?

In both editions there's a cover penalty involved in such situations. I'm not familiar with any rules, 3.0 or otherwise, that would give the -4 "shooting into melee" penalty with melee weapons, even reach melee weapons.

 

[CRGreathouse]

a decent strategy with a polearm gets you most/all of the benefits without any of the penalties.

This is exactly the point I've tried to make. Being able to hit opponents at 5 feet isn't that much of an additional benefit, considering 5-foot steps and so forth. Granted, when you're being mobbed by goblins with 3.5 WA the spiked chain is golden -- but then again, with the feats you burn to use the spiked chain, who can afford WA anyway?

 

[argo]

A lot of good points have already been made but I'll go ahead and throw in another con of the spiked chain: availability. In theory at least you shouldn't be finding a +2 holy flaming burst spiked chain laying around just anywhere, let alone on the shelf of ye olde magic shope. This issue is more or less important depending in the DM and campagin though which makes the balance hard to figure.

Also, in refrence to tripping a person who is tying to stand up, I am of the opinion that it is not allowed under the RAW. If you care to see my argument why check this thread http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58613

Final analysis: the spiked chain is easily abusable by a smart player and kind of silly, but it takes a lot of resources to use to its full effect and if the DM and players have a good relationship shouldn't break the game.