Is the U.S. behind in the sciences?

[d20fool]

No Child Left on Their Behind

I think you're probably right about this and I think it is because we've saddled ourselves with a "one size fits all" public education system.

Here in the US we have this concept of "no child left behind" that is intended to insure that they don't ignore kids who perform poorly in any subject. That's a laudable goal but I think it has had an effect of "dumbing down" our educational system and lowering the bar to see to it that fewer kids are "left behind" by virtue of making it easy to keep up with the work that is presented.

I'll not comment further on the political attitudes this has spawned in me regarding public schools in the US. But suffice it to say that I think the current system is deeply flawed.

A.) One size fits all is changing, depending on district, as more techniques from New Zealand are adopted. My elementary did "one size fits all" when I arrived 5 years ago, now K-3 have individualized instruction.

B.) As for NCLB, nothing could be further from the truth. Like all standardized tests and programs, they require far too much of the students. Often, tests require a SPECIALIZED COLLEGE EDUCATION to answer correctly, a lot to ask of a 10 year old. I've seen tests ask for names of bones in the hand, and back in Colorado (where I'm from) a team of English professors and Deans could not accurately complete the suppousedly High School level test.

NCLB goes on to state that ALL STUDENTS will be at adequate level by 2015 or so. Yes, that means my severely autistic student who doesn't know his own address and can barely write his name will be adequate or we will have failed. Furthermore, we have to have a 3% growth every year or else we are "failing", even if we are already successful. It's a ridiculous program designed to make public schools look bad so voucher programs can be introduced to replace us. After 50 years, it's the only chance for vouchers (favored by the wealthy) because the public consitently votes them down. Voucher language was attempted in the original NCLB bill, struck down by my teacher's union. God bless 'em.

C.) Any degree of flaws can be corrected by one thing, quality teachers. Studies show no other single thing impacts a classroom like a quality teacher. How to you attract quality teachers. You have to get a little wild, a little crazy, think outside the box and PAY THEM. Yep, that's what works. The ol' pay-the-teacher trick.

Honestly, there is NOT a teacher shortage in that there are not enough people qualified to teach. There is a teacher shortage of people who can afford to teach. Many leave or don't even start because of the pay. I myself have to look at administration because my wife and I don't make enough to pay the bills.

John "d20fool" McCarty

 

[Rel]

Studies show no other single thing impacts a classroom like a quality teacher. How to you attract quality teachers. You have to get a little wild, a little crazy, think outside the box and PAY THEM. Yep, that's what works. The ol' pay-the-teacher trick.

Honestly, there is NOT a teacher shortage in that there are not enought people qualified to teach. There is a teacher shortage of people who can afford to teach. Many leave or don't even start because of the pay. I myself have to look at administration because my wife and I don't make enough to pay the bills.

John "d20fool" McCarty

I agree with you that quality teachers could do nothing but improve the educational situation we find ourselves in. And I further agree that paying them more can only help attract better applicants. These are commonly understood "market forces" that apply to most segments of our economy and I'm very much in favor of them.

The problem, as I see it, is the state-run, virtual monopoly of our public educational system. Like any institution of its size it is laden with beurocracy and that beurocracy eats up a tremendous amount of the money that goes toward education in this country. Furthermore the tenure system makes the firing of a bad teacher who has managed to hang in there for a few years nearly impossible barring some egregious misconduct.

If I had the money to send my child to private school then I would do so because I believe there is a greater degree of accountability to be found in a system where they have greater control over the academic environment (by virtue of not having to adhere to the standards set by the state and NEA). I'm in favor of vouchers as a means of giving me a real choice in how my child is educated. If that somehow makes me automatically wealthy then I wish somebody would hurry up and send me a big fat check so I don't have to worry about whether we'll be able to pay our bills each month.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

If I had the money to send my child to private school then I would do so because I believe there is a greater degree of accountability to be found in a system where they have greater control over the academic environment (by virtue of not having to adhere to the standards set by the state and NEA). I'm in favor of vouchers as a means of giving me a real choice in how my child is educated. If that somehow makes me automatically wealthy then I wish somebody would hurry up and send me a big fat check so I don't have to worry about whether we'll be able to pay our bills each month.

My wife has taught at both private and public schools. The private school was reputed to be an excelent school and was quite expensive to attend. Her conclusion when all was said and done, the public and private schools came out about equal. Each had some great strengths and serious weaknesses. As for the quality of the teachers, both had a mix of excellent and mediocre teachers. The pay, contrary to popular belief, was worse at the private school. Admittedly, she does now work in one of the better paying, better funded public school districts, but it shows that a good public school is easily as good as a private school.

 

[Rel]

My wife has taught at both private and public schools. The private school was reputed to be an excelent school and was quite expensive to attend. Her conclusion when all was said and done, the public and private schools came out about equal.

In no way am I disputing the validity of your anecdote. But to me there still seems to be one big difference (at least as it applies to the place that I live): If you send your child to private school then you send them to whatever school you like that, in your opinion as a parent, best serves their educational needs. If your child attends public school then the county tells you where your child will be going. If you want, for any reason, to change this, then you have to submit an application to them to let you change schools and they are not in any way compelled to give you what you ask for. In fact they actively discourage this because "if they did this for everyone who asks then there would be chaos".

Imagine if the state ran the dry-cleaning industry and told you where your designated dry-cleaner was. Imagine if they designated that your dry-cleaner was way across town. Imagine that they designated a dry-cleaner that did a mediocre job. Imagine that you had to apply for an exception if you wished to switch to a different dry-cleaner that was more convenient or did a better job.

I can't quite wrap my brain around why most people would be outraged if their choice of dry-cleaner was dictated in this way but they're just find with it being applied to their child's education.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Imagine if the state ran the dry-cleaning industry and told you where your designated dry-cleaner was. Imagine if they designated that your dry-cleaner was way across town. Imagine that they designated a dry-cleaner that did a mediocre job. Imagine that you had to apply for an exception if you wished to switch to a different dry-cleaner that was more convenient or did a better job.

I can't quite wrap my brain around why most people would be outraged if their choice of dry-cleaner was dictated in this way but they're just find with it being applied to their child's education.

An interesting example. I can't completely disagree with this, but at the same time, there is a lot more to public education than there is to running a dry cleaners. I tried going into more of my thought on this, but it was getting a little too political, so I have edited it out.

In the end I think the best thing we can do is to fight like mad within the system to make it better for everyone's children - and not only during those years our own children are in the system. Work to make it better before your kids get there, while your kids are there, and long after they are done, because that doctor prescribing your medications when you are 70 will have come through that same system.

 

[Rel]

I tried going into more of my thought on this, but it was getting a little too political, so I have edited it out.

I agree and I think I'll quit while I'm not behind.

In the end I think the best thing we can do is to fight like mad within the system to make it better for everyone's children - and not only during those years our own children are in the system.

I intend to do what I can within the system to try and get as good an education for my daughter as possible. But I also don't think that there is so much great about the public education system that I'm not willing to try some radical alternatives.

In the interests of moving this away from politics and more toward the focus of these boards, I will say that one thing that saved me educationally was RPG's. My desire to know things about history, science, art and literature that pertained to the games I played was enough to drive me to further study these topics. And it kept me reading almost constanly when many of my classmates stayed as far from books they didn't HAVE to read as possible. In many ways I feel like was educating myself through gaming better than most people were in my school.

 

[Shemeska]

Almost the exact opposite. The US is a brain drain on the rest of the world. Research money in the US, especially private investments, occurs at a scale wildly above most any other nation, especially in the biological sciences (ie drugs).

 

[Shemeska]

I think one area where the U.S. could lag behind is in embryonic stem cell research. We place a great amount of concern over the cloning and use of embryonic stem cells - cells which will be destroyed regardless, and could be used to cure diabetes, alzheimers, and other diseases. Japan, and Europe have no such qualms, so while we bicker over politics in these areas, it seems likely that the next great advancements here could come from other countries.

Not really IMHO. The situation now, as flawed as it might be, is better than during the Clinton years when there was a blanket ban on federal funding. The current situation is funding with restrictions on source. This doesn't impact private research whatsoever, and many people overlook that. Plus, it doesn't take into account the money that California just pumped into the area. Nor does it take into account that adult origin stemcells are not touched by the federal restrictions (and some of the most promising type I diabetes work has occured with adult spleen origin stem cells).

Japan and Europe may not have the same slim federal restrictions, but they aren't pumping the same level of money into the field either from any number of sources. And other nations have more restrictions on biological research than the US: witness the EU's modern day luddites trying to ban or restrict GMOs because it isn't "natural". Capitulation to ignorance, just as bad as not teaching evolution because of right wing concerns. Additionally, Canada has outright passed legislation restricting experimentation with animal/human chimeras. No country is immune to this bunk, nor is any single country the focus of ignorance, be it left wing or right wing influenced.

 

[Desdichado]

"The sciences..." That's a bit broad, don't you think?

Of course, the answer is also not as simple as all that; most Ph.D. programs in the States were (until 9/11 anyway, when visas suddenly became much more difficult to get) full of very large contingents of foreign students. If we're not behind now, we may well be in the future. It's a major concern of the US academic industry that their enrollment has been sharply curtailed, and it's been a major opportunity of other institutions around the world to pick up the slack, which they've done with gusto.

Or so my dad tells me anway. He should know, though; he's a dean at Texas Tech.

 

[Angcuru]

The US just doesn't pursue the controversial sciences that draw attention as much as other nations do. Hence, you don't hear about the US making wild neato awesome advances as much as like in the EU and Japan, where scruples are hard to find and anything is game for research.

We're ahead, but not in a spectacularly visible manner.