Is there a better thought out book than Savage Species?

[Fun Elemental!]

I'd like to get some options for monster PC/NPCs, and frankly, Savage Species is just plain horrible.

-You can't create a 'caster' monster that isn't pathetically weak. Adding Sorcerer levels to an Incubus is just a waste. Forget about an Imp Wizard.

-HP, BAB, and saves are all absolutly terrible.


If you take X levels of Y monster, you should get the same degree of benefits as if you took X levels of Z class. It sure does not feel that way.

Has someone done a book similar to Savage Species, except they put a little more thought into it?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Ummmm...that's the way that monsters always work in 3.5. You can never create a caster monster. If you want a caster monster, let the nonmonsters be gestalt characters and then let the monster have caster levels gestalted with monster levels.

If you want advice for advancing monsters as a GM and perhaps a player (advice that includes not to be tempted to advance with caster levels, even for fey and outsiders), Monster's Handbook by FFG is top-notch. Mike Mearls knows his stuff

 

[Fun Elemental!]

You make it sound like having an Incubus sorcerer that is the least bit effective is a BAD thing.

Obviously you can't just make a 13th level Incubus Sorcerer with all the stats of an incubus in addition to having all the abilities of a 13th level Sorcerer.

However, having a 12 Incubus/ 1 Sorcerer that runs around shooting one 1d4+1 magic missile at people is equally retarded.

Someone has to have done the work to figure out a balanced middle ground.

 

[Klaus]

If you're relying on that 1d4+1 of magic missile, you're not playing up to your strengths.

Now, an incubus that uses his sorcerer spells for True Strike and Mage Armor is in much better shape.

 

[Nail]

If you take X levels of Y monster, you should get the same degree of benefits as if you took X levels of Z class.

If you thought this through a bit more, you'd see that such a system would be a bad idea.

There are many, many, many class combos that are Bad Ideas(tm). Why should Monster/Class combos be any different?

As for your Incubus Sorcerer: Your caster level will suck, no doubt about it....unless you take the appropriate feats (Practiced Spellcaster, for one) and stick with spells that play to your strengths (like Charm Person). And if this is for an NPC, ECL isn't nearly as important as CR, and there are "non-associated class levels" to take care of that.

 

[Rystil Arden]

If you thought this through a bit more, you'd see that such a system would be a bad idea.

There are many, many, many class combos that are Bad Ideas(tm). Why should Monster/Class combos be any different?

As for your Incubus Sorcerer: Your caster level will suck, no doubt about it....unless you take the appropriate feats (Practiced Spellcaster, for one) and stick with spells that play to your strengths (like Charm Person). And if this is for an NPC, ECL isn't nearly as important as CR, and there are "non-associated class levels" to take care of that.

Indeed. Mike suggests in Monster's Handbook to put the incubus abilities to good use by taking some Rogue levels.

 

[Nail]

....I'm assuming the Incubus is like a succubus. Where is that from, BTW? Just Savage Species?

 

[Fun Elemental!]

Look.

+STR +BAB monster classes at least stack with melee based character levels.

Spell like ability monsters don't stack with caster based character levels.

All this means is that WotC wrote half-baked rules. I'm looking for rules that work, not excuses for why I shouldn't want those rules.

As for the encounter aspect of it, the only way I see to do it, is to just make the monster WAAAAAAAAAAY over-powered, and just 'hold back' on the fly. Which is dumb. Its just dressed up desu ex machina at that point.

As it is, when a Incubus is no longer effective because of party level, giving him 5 levels of Sorcerer isn't going to make ANY diffrence. Bringing level 2 spells to a fight when level 8 spells are flying is useless. Even giving him 10 levels of sorcerer so he can use a single level 5 spell is better, but still borken.

The rules really fall flat on their face when you consider what adding 5 levels of Barbarian or Fighter does for a Bebilith.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Look.

+STR +BAB monster classes at least stack with melee based character levels.

Spell like ability monsters don't stack with caster based character levels.

All this means is that WotC wrote half-baked rules. I'm looking for rules that work, not excuses for why I shouldn't want those rules.

As for the encounter aspect of it, the only way I see to do it, is to just make the monster WAAAAAAAAAAY over-powered, and just 'hold back' on the fly. Which is dumb. Its just dressed up desu ex machina at that point.

As it is, when a Incubus is no longer effective because of party level, giving him 5 levels of Sorcerer isn't going to make ANY diffrence. Bringing level 2 spells to a fight when level 8 spells are flying is useless. Even giving him 10 levels of sorcerer so he can use a single level 5 spell is better, but still borken.

The rules really fall flat on their face when you consider what adding 5 levels of Barbarian or Fighter does for a Bebilith.

Dude, that's like saying that adding 10 levels of Sorcerer to my Level 10 Wizard isn't as good as adding 10 more levels of Wizard. Not all class combinations are meant to be equal. That would be impossible.

 

[IcyCool]

A Kobold Barbarian is a poor choice (power-gaming wise) over a Half-Orc Barbarian, or a Dwarf Barbarian. But Kobolds make good Rogues.

A Succubus/Incubus makes a poor sorcerer (power-gaming wise), but with some levels in Rogue and Blackguard, they are pretty sweet.

If you are looking for a custom casting monster, use the monster creation rules in the back of the Monster Manual. They do a pretty good job of generalizing alot of things.