D&D 4E Is there a "Cliffs Notes" summary of the entire 4E experience?

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Dausuul

Legend
It's very hard to say what would have happened in the absence of the OGL and Pathfinder. But it's worth noting that excursions like 4E - where the latest incarnation of a game franchise charts a radically different course from its predecessors - are far from unusual in the PC and console gaming worlds. I don't have any statistics to back this up, but my sense is that most such excursions meet with rejection from the fans, and the next version "comes home," much as 5E is doing. Or else the excursion kills the franchise altogether, and it lies buried for a decade or more, until someone decides to try and resurrect it. (See: Master of Orion III.)
 
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Nagol

Unimportant
Well, this thread is certainly serving up a microcosm of the whole 4e-timeframe on the messageboards, right down to the sneering dismissive responses to posts characteristic of the edition war. I'm sorry you had to witness it but I'm not surprised because this thread underlines just how much the sentiments for and against the edition continue to this day as well as how much or little we respect each other's statements.

I thought we'd were doing pretty well until the last 24 hours or so :( I should know better than post my reason for dislike. All I that happens is I'm told how wrong I am.
 


Dausuul

Legend
Ouch

That's just mean
To be clear, I'm not claiming 4E was the equivalent of Master of Orion III. MoO3 was just a mess. 4E is actually a pretty decent game, although IMO it doesn't wear well. You could do a lot with the basic framework. I'll be interested to see if anyone creates a "4E Pathfinder" (sounds like 13th Age is shooting for that), and what they make of it.

But the point is that as part of the D&D franchise, it's not at all clear 4E would have succeeded in pulling the franchise onto a new track. It probably wouldn't have been a franchise-killer, but it's quite possible that in the absence of Pathfinder, most of those who jumped ship would have stuck with 3E or just drifted out of gaming altogether.
 


Dausuul

Legend
sorry, was just being tongue in cheek
No worries. :)

Totally off topic, I followed the development of MoO3 pretty closely--the designers made a point of being very open with the fans. They had some pretty grand ambitions for the game, centered around the idea that you would actually be playing the part of Emperor, with AI "viceroys" who do their own thing unless you step in and tell them otherwise. As Emperor, you got a limited amount of Imperial Focus Points to spend each turn on ordering your viceroys around. The idea was that you could either try to steer the whole empire at a macro level, without ever getting deep into the details, or you could really focus on one area and let the rest run on autopilot.

Unfortunately, playtest feedback indicated that players found IFPs frustrating to deal with. So they got rid of them. Which left them with a situation where you had an entire empire open for you to micromanage in the traditional style, but a whole bunch of AI viceroys constantly meddling with your decisions. Add to that the horrendously poor interface design, the abysmal stupidity of the AI at every level, and an ant farm's worth of bugs, and it was a disaster. It needed another year of development, if not more, but they were already way behind schedule and the publisher was going to turn off the money spigot, so they just shoved it out the door and prayed. Their prayers, needless to say, were not answered.

It kind of puts 4E in perspective.
 
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piffany

First Post
I have to say that I've loved 4e and haven't had any problems introducing it to newer players. But I was late to the party. (Played 1st edition years ago, and tried to get into 3.5 but didn't enjoy it because of the poor (IMO) balance).
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I really like 4e. It's my current system of choice (we'll see if 5e can dethrone it someday, but for now it's too sketchy and awkward).

But I've had a lot of back-and-forth with some of 4e's biggest fans because some of the things they find most beloved and intuitive about the system are things that punch my happy fun elf times in the face hard and repeatedly.

I see 4e's biggest strength as its mathematical underpinnings. I wouldn't call it balance, I would call it predictability. 4e's bend away from swing and toward a quantified experience (1 hr combats) made it easy to understand the underlying elements at work in the numbers.

And once you have a numbers system that works, everything is up for grabs.

Combats too slow? Speed 'em up, predictably.

Want some more swing? Rip out the system's training wheels and go wild.

Want more in-character elements? Layer 'em on the numbers, man. The numbers are meaningless. They're placeholders. They're a pacing system when you get down to it, and like any pacing system, you can interact with it and disrupt it and make it do what you want. High point here, low point there, steady build between these two points, BAM.

I find that for me, 4e's biggest weakness was its "one true way" ism. There's no reason that 4e HAD to be a game at its core about ADEU, Healing Surges, Martial Dailies, Inspirational Healing, Morale HP, skill challenges, Forgesqueries, Dragonborn, blink elves, or any of that rot. 4e *should* have been a game you could play without any of that (arguably, it should have been a game you could play without any of that at launch). But rather than providing a real, systemic alternative, 4e became too conservative to do anything other than basically the same thing with slightly different keywords and color palettes most of the time, and always revolving around splats that added hundreds of combat options and, functionally, little else. 4.5 was a bit of a step away from that, and 4e grew more comfortable with adding a lot of fluff onto those combat options, but even Essentials and late 4e books like Heroes of the Feywild couldn't shake the lingering bounds of the system it was embedded in. There was a "Right" Way To Play D&D in the 4e era, and people who didn't want to play that way were not given any sort of real, official support.

Most of the things that 4e wound up defining itself with are things that I don't like about 4e, and can totally understand when people give up on the game for doing it (even if it's not always so severe for me). But for all of its desperate, pleading insistence that you play it in this specific and narrow way, I find that it shines for me best when I strip all that away to the naked core of the thing, and make THAT sit up and beg for me.

Which seems to make me an odd duck in the D&D world. I don't think I'd DM Pathfinder if you paid me, but what 4e's most ardent fans rave about and what its publishers insist on are the superfluous things I can't get rid of fast enough. The delight I have in 4e has jack all to do with it "finally delivering on D&D's promises" (as if no one told an epic D&D story before 4e came along), and 100% to do with that "I know Kung Fu" feeling you have when you know with a high degree of precision where you can press and tuck and cut to produce the effect you want. And 4e makes that easier and clearer than any edition before it -- and quite possibly trumps 5e in this regard too, though time will tell. I'll take the "9+ hits" and I'll leave the morale HP. I'll take the "5 encounters before a full recharge," and I'll leave AEDU.

Give me the Nentir Vale, and I will burn it to the ground. Give me Page 42, and I will build empires that stretch beyond the stars.

I'm still pretty optimistic about 5e, too, despite some recent heartbreaking news about second wind and tieflings. ;)
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
1. How did everybody (or most people) here react to the news of a new edition in the first place? Excitement or trepidation? Didn't 3.5 still have a good amount of momentum in 2007? Or were people ready for an overhaul?

2. How impressive were the early sneak peeks? Were people shocked at some of the changes from the get go? Or were people who didn't like the new game mostly blindsided once they picked up the core books?

3. I see that that having the option of playing "Pathfinder" fragmented the fanbase somewhat. Was that a good thing or bad thing for this forum? Or did it have a minimal effect at all?

4. What else was noteworthy about 4E? Was there some product that was particularly awesome or infamous?

I've chimed in a little on this thread and I'd like to elaborate a bit more on the direct questions from the OP.

1. I'm not sure how most people reacted, but I was fairly optimistic. When WotC announced 3e, I didn't have a high opinion of the project - but the news they released about it plus the coverage on Eric Noah's 3e News site encouraged me. I liked most of what I was hearing. Then when the game was released, I found that WotC had won me over. That bought a lot of credibility with me. The trajectory of the 4e build-up was almost directly opposite. The more I heard, the less I liked what I was hearing. The impression I got was that WotC was listening to only a segment of their market's feedback - the one focusing on certain aspects of balance and that was leading to a radical redesign rather than continuity and compatibility. In hindsight, I should have seen in coming. The 3.5 revision, which included some really good revisions (bard, ranger, haste spell, harm spell, and some other fixes) included a lot of feature creep, including a lot of magic being reduced in duration to combat encounter appropriate times, but not utility times. Gone were the days a PC could do extensive scouting with a single invisibility spell on them - a fairly common occurrence in 1e/2e days. Add to that the Book of Nine Swords (which I didn't have because I thought the flavor was all wrong for the D&D I preferred to play) and the writing was on the wall if you chose to look.

2. I was pretty flummoxed by the changes I was seeing and the previews directly led to my lowering expectations.

3. Pathfinder. That was a bit more of what I wanted the next edition of D&D to be - one with improvements but also largely compatible with the previous edition so that we could improve our game's rules without having to start over. But I don't put much credence on the idea that Pathfinder or even the Open Game License caused the split. The split was already there. 4e exposed it. Paizo with Pathfinder served the group not interested in 4e - a group that would have been there, regardless of the existence of the OGL and Pathfinder. It's true that Pathfinder proved a ready go-to game and it's impressive rise is a testament to that. But 4e would have struggled without it and the group I played it with would still have dropped it without PF - in fact, that group still doesn't play PF and has never played it, we went back to 3.5e and Star Wars Saga Edition (with a side trek into Torg).

4. One of the most infamous products of 4e wasn't even a game product - it was the GSL. The new license was so late in coming and so hostile to 3rd party intellectual property that even 4e's biggest 3rd party cheerleader, Necromancer Games, had to reject it and even its softer revision. The GSL had to be conceived as a hostile move toward 3rd party publishers and I think it had to come as a directive from above WotC itself or at least from an outsider. There are too many people involved in WotC R&D that are friends of Paizo and their employees to imagine such an unacceptable license coming from within WotC's own culture. It's lateness and character had the effect of sealing the deal - or lack thereof - between WotC and Paizo. Paizo had to either go on its own or expect to close shop.
 

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