D&D General Is there an increase in "godless" campaign settings?

[Mirtek]

Don't all of the evil cosmologies have the prospect for rebirth and possible later ascension? I thought lemures and the like eventually reform and get another chance to work their way up to pit fiend.

Theoretically any lemure could become the next lord of nessus, pratically most will never advance very far.

And while they are on the bottom, anyone above them is being a dick to them.

Likewise on Celestia it's not that different in regards to advancement, but everybody above you is comoassionate and helpful toward you.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Remember kids, don't do evil.

A Scared Straight program run by a Lemure to convince Evil Characters to change their alignment would be pretty great. "I used to be just like you. I thought being Evil was cool. Then I died. Now I have a 15 ft speed and I'm the universal doormat of Hell."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That's the point. It is not supposed to be a punishment. Good hasn't any higher authority than Evil or Law or Chaos.

Except that lots of the fiction of the game, both homebrew and from TSR/WotC, depicts people being "condemned" to Hell or the Abyss. And since that's patently untrue, either all the "good" religions of the game are lying to their worshipers -- which is a pretty big revelation -- or this was unintentional on the parts of at least some of the writers.

I honestly think you've probably thought this through more than most of the designers.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Theoretically any lemure could become the next lord of nessus, pratically most will never advance very far.

And while they are on the bottom, anyone above them is being a dick to them.

So, sort of like life, then.

Humans spend their entire lives seeking goals they will never reach. Most of them don't view it as a futile chore or something to resent.

"One day, I'll be a millionaire!" "All I need is one big break!" "This next boss will see all I have to offer!"

 

[Faolyn]

Except that lots of the fiction of the game, both homebrew and from TSR/WotC, depicts people being "condemned" to Hell or the Abyss. And since that's patently untrue, either all the "good" religions of the game are lying to their worshipers -- which is a pretty big revelation -- or this was unintentional on the parts of at least some of the writers.

I honestly think you've probably thought this through more than most of the designers.

It's kind of a bit of both. You're "condemned" to a lower plane, as in not being allowed in an upper plane. Things likely will suck a lot for you because of your deeds. But you may eventually rise to power, after hundreds, thousands, or millions of years.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Except that lots of the fiction of the game, both homebrew and from TSR/WotC, depicts people being "condemned" to Hell or the Abyss. And since that's patently untrue, either all the "good" religions of the game are lying to their worshipers -- which is a pretty big revelation -- or this was unintentional on the parts of at least some of the writers.

I honestly think you've probably thought this through more than most of the designers.

Mt Celestia seems like a place most people might enjoy visiting. I don't think you can really say the same for the Abyss.

I mean, sure, there's a small chance in the Abyss that you could rise to the rank of Demon Lord, but that's kind of like being king of the trash heap. You constantly have to watch for other demons (including other Demon Lords) trying to topple you. It doesn't seem like it would be an idyllic existence. Rather one of perpetual strife. Sure, you might be able to escape for a time to the Prime Material, but your essence is tied to the plane. Sooner or later, you'll be killed or banished and then it's right back to the trash heap.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Mt Celestia seems like a place most people might enjoy visiting. I don't think you can really say the same for the Abyss.

I mean, sure, there's a small chance in the Abyss that you could rise to the rank of Demon Lord, but that's kind of like being king of the trash heap. You constantly have to watch for other demons (including other Demon Lords) trying to topple you. It doesn't seem like it would be an idyllic existence. Rather one of perpetual strife. Sure, you might be able to escape for a time to the Prime Material, but your essence is tied to the plane. Sooner or later, you'll be killed or banished and then it's right back to the trash heap.

so the lower planes are half punishment half what you would want.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Mt Celestia seems like a place most people might enjoy visiting. I don't think you can really say the same for the Abyss.

I mean, sure, there's a small chance in the Abyss that you could rise to the rank of Demon Lord, but that's kind of like being king of the trash heap. You constantly have to watch for other demons (including other Demon Lords) trying to topple you. It doesn't seem like it would be an idyllic existence. Rather one of perpetual strife. Sure, you might be able to escape for a time to the Prime Material, but your essence is tied to the plane. Sooner or later, you'll be killed or banished and then it's right back to the trash heap.

I think if you look at the people most likely going to the Abyss -- look, for instance, at a lot of "edgy" or "tell it like it is" folks on Twitter and YouTube -- I think most of them assume, incorrectly, that they'll be the Demon Prince of Hot Takes within a few weeks. So, from their standpoint, it's not condemnation at all, and I can't imagine that everyone on the Prime Material views it that way.

A Lawful Good church would, of course, say that it's a punishment, but they probably also suggest that Elysium and Bytopia are places to be avoided, too.

 

[Fanaelialae]

so the lower planes are half punishment half what you would want.

I see it more as giving you what you think you want while withholding your true desires.

Like an impersonal domain of dread. Strahd is ostensibly the ruler of Barovia. He's immortal and undeniable. His domain is generally safe from his enemies. Every few generations the woman he desires most is reincarnated. It should be his paradise. But instead it's a cage meant to torment him. To dangle happiness within a hair's breadth, only to snatch it away and cast him into despair.

I see the lower planes as serving a similar function, but with a less personalized touch. Perhaps in life you would have done anything for power, because you associated it with security. So in the afterlife you toil and scheme for eons to rise to the rank of Demon Lord, only to find you have an even bigger target on your back. But just enough power that it would be foolish to give it up. So now you are condemned to a life of power without security, at least until someone like you comes along and takes your place.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think if you look at the people most likely going to the Abyss -- look, for instance, at a lot of "edgy" or "tell it like it is" folks on Twitter and YouTube -- I think most of them assume, incorrectly, that they'll be the Demon Prince of Hot Takes within a few weeks. So, from their standpoint, it's not condemnation at all, and I can't imagine that everyone on the Prime Material views it that way.

A Lawful Good church would, of course, say that it's a punishment, but they probably also suggest that Elysium and Bytopia are places to be avoided, too.

But they won't be, which is why it is a punishment. There's nothing worse than getting what you thought you wanted and realizing it isn't all you thought it was cracked up to be.

Granted, that's a valid reason why evil folks might strive for going to the lower planes.