OSR Is there room in modern gaming for the OSR to bring in new gamers?

[Sacrosanct]

The point is they werent as mainstream back and the separation of fantasy books, scifi book, comics, movies, and the rest was more solid. The ideas influencing D&D were fewer.

So you won't have people attempting to metalbend every trap. A DM or Book designer would have to sell players to play this game without the concepts from all these new sources.

I can't agree. The people playing D&D back then were the same ones who were already into comics and fantasy cartoons and books and movies.

We had all these concepts from all this other media already. Do you not think superheros were a thing in the 80s or something? All of these heroes and villains in the MCU now all came from the 60s-80s. All of them. With all of their powers.

There aren't any fantastical concepts that are out now that didnt also exist back then.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I mean ... no?

I've seen the phrase, "I don't want X in my fantasy," more today than I ever did back then. D&D was so much more profoundly weird than people realize. I am going to do a deep dive on this in one of my overwrought WALL OF VOODOO... um, WALL OF TEXT posts next week, but-
Rules for explicitly having characters go between systems (Gamma World and Boot Hill to D&D and so on).
Modules with science fiction.
Modules based on Alice and Wonderland.
The weird remix that was the original monster manual, that included everything from Indian folklore to Japanese toys.

Sure, things have changed since the 70s (I WOULD HOPE SO!), but no understanding how truly weird stuff was back then is its own type of error.

Absolutely. For those of us who remember the 80s, it was a decade where literally anything went. Just go look at what was happening back then. Laser shooting dinosaurs? Check. Cat eating alien good guys? Mainstream. It was a WEIRD decade. More than any other decade since IMO.

The very first game I wrote was in 1986 based off of a mix mash of Aliens, Predator, Robocop, Mad Max, and Platoon. Why? Cuz it was awesome. And the 80s lol

 

[Minigiant]

I mean ... no?

I've seen the phrase, "I don't want X in my fantasy," more today than I ever did back then. D&D was so much more profoundly weird than people realize. I am going to do a deep dive on this in one of my overwrought WALL OF VOODOO... um, WALL OF TEXT posts next week, but-
Rules for explicitly having characters go between systems (Gamma World and Boot Hill to D&D and so on).
Modules with science fiction.
Modules based on Alice and Wonderland.
The weird remix that was the original monster manual, that included everything from Indian folklore to Japanese toys.

Sure, things have changed since the 70s (I WOULD HOPE SO!), but no understanding how truly weird stuff was back then is its own type of error.

I'm not saying that there were no weird stuff in the 80s and 70s.

I am saying there are literally more (in quantity) weird stuff today. And the assumption that the GM and a player are coming with the same ideas, logic, and preferences is less likely.

So a game with a lot of unwritten or "on the spot" rules would need to be pitched more and very clearly.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I'm not saying that there were no weird stuff in the 80s and 70s.

I am saying there are literally more (in quantity) weird stuff today. And the assumption that the GM and a player are coming with the same ideas, logic, and preferences is less likely.

So a game with a lot of unwritten or "on the spot" rules would need to be pitched more and very clearly.

I ... yeah, I don't see that. I mean, were you there? I was! It was weird, and I wouldn't say that people were coming in with the same assumptions. Now, it's all "Critical Role does this ..." We didn't have any kind of D&D mass media back then.

So we had people that wanted to play characters from Star Blazers (Space Battleship Yamato) or Battle of the Planets (Science Ninja Team Gatchman), while others looked to Ultraman for their guide or wanted to play Monks based off of the Hong Kong cinema we would get on UHF channels at night.

Still others preferred Wizards and Necron 99 and wanted a fantasy/modern/GW mashup with Changeling elements. Another campaign ditched Gygax's psionics system and had a complete Julian May-based system. The porous bounds between the infinite worlds of the Prime Material Plane meant that craziness was always around the corner.

It's bizarrely dismissive to assume that people weren't kind of weird back then; look at the game they gave us.

 

[Minigiant]

I ... yeah, I don't see that. I mean, were you there? I was! It was weird, and I wouldn't say that people were coming in with the same assumptions. Now, it's all "Critical Role does this ..." We didn't have any kind of D&D mass media back then.

So we had people that wanted to play characters from Star Blazers (Space Battleship Yamato) or Battle of the Planets (Science Ninja Team Gatchman), while others looked to Ultraman for their guide or wanted to play Monks based off of the Hong Kong cinema we would get on UHF channels at night.

Still others preferred Wizards and Necron 99 and wanted a fantasy/modern/GW mashup with Changeling elements. Another campaign ditched Gygax's psionics system and had a complete Julian May-based system. The porous bounds between the infinite worlds of the Prime Material Plane meant that craziness was always around the corner.

It's bizarrely dismissive to assume that people weren't kind of weird back then; look at the game they gave us.

I didn't say people weren't weird back then.

I said there are more weird stuff because it's been decades. Weird stuff is created daily. Staple weirdness became obscure with time. Half my player on Saturday never read nor saw LOTR, Thundercats, or Conan.

I mean it people today and then thought the same, why is this thread here?

 

[Rob Kuntz]

I can't agree. The people playing D&D back then were the same ones who were already into comics and fantasy cartoons and books and movies.

We had all these concepts from all this other media already. Do you not think superheros were a thing in the 80s or something? All of these heroes and villains in the MCU now all came from the 60s-80s. All of them. With all of their powers.

There aren't any fantastical concepts that are out now that didnt also exist back then.

To Wit: Taking D&D "Back" To Its Future Level: Part 1

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I didn't say people weren't weird back then.

I said there are more weird stuff because it's been decades. Weird stuff is created daily. Staple weirdness became obscure with time. Half my player on Saturday never read nor saw LOTR, Thundercats, or Conan.

I mean it people today and then thought the same, why is this thread here?

So that's kind of the thing! I don't think we are arguing, so much as talking past each other. You are focused on the stuff today which isn't in the past game (which, I mean, of course ... unless there is some serious temporal paradoxes going on). On the other hand, you kind of sort of have to acknowledge, as you just did, that people today don't know what was going on back then (the past is an undiscovered country....).

All of which means that these things will be new and different to them. That there is value to be gained in the admixture of old and new. After all, we constantly are looking to renew culture, and I bet someone right now will be rediscovering Fritz Lieber and, most likely, remixing it into something I can't even imagine!

 

[Mercurius]

Now this, I do not understand. Would you also argue that 99% of new players are better off playing 5th edition D&D than, say, RuneQuest or GURPS Dungeon Fantasy or d6 Fantasy?

Sure, insofar as player availability going forward. Nothing wrong with OSR or non-D&D games, but I think the danger for a new player would be getting stuck in a ghetto.

Or to put it another way, 5E is sort of like English. You obviously want to know your local language, but as far as interacting beyond your linguistic group, it is very useful for a person to know English. Starting off (which is what the OP is about) with an OSR game is like learning German first. It is great for living in Germany, but if you want to go outside of Germany, knowing English would be very useful.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Sure, insofar as player availability going forward. Nothing wrong with OSR or non-D&D games, but I think the danger for a new player would be getting stuck in a ghetto.

Or to put it another way, 5E is sort of like English. You obviously want to know your local language, but as far as interacting beyond your linguistic group, it is very useful for a person to know English. Starting off (which is what the OP is about) with an OSR game is like learning German first. It is great for living in Germany, but if you want to go outside of Germany, knowing English would be very useful.

I have to agree with this, as much as it might pain me. 5e is everywhere, and it is best for new players to learn the most common TTRPG.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Honestly, any analysis of a game movement that doesn't look at play agendas but instead compares to an extant set of rules as a guidepost is inherently bogus.

It's hard to conceive of a more semantically vacuous concept than "play agendas."

Sure, insofar as player availability going forward. Nothing wrong with OSR or non-D&D games, but I think the danger for a new player would be getting stuck in a ghetto.

Or to put it another way, 5E is sort of like English. You obviously want to know your local language, but as far as interacting beyond your linguistic group, it is very useful for a person to know English. Starting off (which is what the OP is about) with an OSR game is like learning German first. It is great for living in Germany, but if you want to go outside of Germany, knowing English would be very useful.

That strikes me as a very strange argument. It boils down to, "New players should learn on whatever is the most popular game at the time, regardless of that game's qualities."