OSR Is there room in modern gaming for the OSR to bring in new gamers?

[loverdrive]

Maybe not completely different, depending on how close we look. It's like a fractal -- the closer we zoom, the more distinction we see.

Can we consider gaming a hobby? Sure. Let's look closer.
Can we consider tabletop games a hobby, separate from video games or (I don't know the word) games like football and basketball? Sure. Let's look closer.
Can we consider TTRPGs a hobby, separate from wargames, board games, CCGs and gambling? Sure. Let's look closer.
Can we consider OSR a hobby, separate from New School and Mid School? Sure. Let's...

Yeah, let's stop. I don't really want to type more of the same naughty word.


I didn't say they are mutually exclusive. I did say that they are very different.

If you are running 5E as an impartial judge, you're engaging in a Old School gaming. If you are running B/X with the focus on actively creating a story (and not just getting one from series of rolls), by invoking genre tropes and taking into account story structure (three act structure, five act structure, whatever else you've picked), then, well, you ain't doing it in Old School way.


Yeah, and hip-hop is hip-hop. But no one would argue that cloud rap is very different from old skool. Though, I'd definitely say that "old" and "new" are very stupid terms -- a band that was calling themselves "New School of Russian hip-hop" is now considered aggressively old-school

And, well, I don't know naughty word about collecting hot wheels or matchboxes... Oh. Damn. Ok. I thought you were comparing matchboxes (like, boxes of matches? I guess someone collects them) to hot wheels. Sorry, disregard that. The only brand of toy cars I know is hot wheels.

Though, continuing with the things I know, within firearms collecting there are very separate categories. Collecting Wild West guns is very different from collecting WWII guns, which is very different from collecting AKs (no one asked, but this is what I do).

Now I think, maybe calling that "genres" maybe a better idea. But that word is very fractal too -- technical death metal is a genre, death metal is a genre and metal is a genre. Also, a layman probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between metal and hardcore punk, lol.

 

[jmartkdr2]

A couple thoughts:

1. A lot of the fantasy fiction that really informed the early games, and lent to the playstyle we now call OSR, aren't really popular anymore. Even among fantasy fiction fans, books by Lieber, Howard, Anderson, Vance aren't being read. The names are known, but the books are often only known by reputation.

Tolkien is timeless, the others not so much.

Younger players entering the hobby are coming in with a very different idea of what fantasy fiction should look like, and actually old-school stuff doesn't look the same.

2. Back in the day, a lot of people were playing new-school, OC based, story-driven games. They were doing so despite the ruleset, but it was certainly happening. So even among those of us who grew up on Basic DnD, the OSR style isn't what we actually did.

3. OSR playstyle relays a lot on having a good dm. Bad dm = bad game, and the old rules only gave a bit of guidance. This results in inconsistent experiences, including many people who were glad to see the rise of dm limitations and clear rules for doing things. These elements became standard in response to a need. PbtA is (I would say) a continuation of this point - it creates clear rules to prevent certain kinds of bad gming.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Maybe not completely different, depending on how close we look. It's like a fractal -- the closer we zoom, the more distinction we see.

Can we consider gaming a hobby? Sure. Let's look closer.
Can we consider tabletop games a hobby, separate from video games or (I don't know the word) games like football and basketball? Sure. Let's look closer.
Can we consider TTRPGs a hobby, separate from wargames, board games, CCGs and gambling? Sure. Let's look closer.
Can we consider OSR a hobby, separate from New School and Mid School? Sure. Let's...

Yeah, let's stop. I don't really want to type more of the same naughty word.


I didn't say they are mutually exclusive. I did say that they are very different.

If you are running 5E as an impartial judge, you're engaging in a Old School gaming. If you are running B/X with the focus on actively creating a story (and not just getting one from series of rolls), by invoking genre tropes and taking into account story structure (three act structure, five act structure, whatever else you've picked), then, well, you ain't doing it in Old School way.


Yeah, and hip-hop is hip-hop. But no one would argue that cloud rap is very different from old skool. Though, I'd definitely say that "old" and "new" are very stupid terms -- a band that was calling themselves "New School of Russian hip-hop" is now considered aggressively old-school

And, well, I don't know naughty word about collecting hot wheels or matchboxes... Oh. Damn. Ok. I thought you were comparing matchboxes (like, boxes of matches? I guess someone collects them) to hot wheels. Sorry, disregard that. The only brand of toy cars I know is hot wheels.

Though, continuing with the things I know, within firearms collecting there are very separate categories. Collecting Wild West guns is very different from collecting WWII guns, which is very different from collecting AKs (no one asked, but this is what I do).

collecting guns, cars, or baseball cards or whatever are hobbies without needing to specify what type of gun, car, or baseball car you're collecting.. You might want to try to break them down into super specific details, but no one else does.

Trust me, the rest of the world thinks someone who plays 1e D&D and someone who plays 5e D&D are doing the same hobby. heck, they think anyone pretending to be an elf while rolling funny dice is the same hobby.

It's silly to argue that they are "very different hobbies'.

"Oh! You play D&D? I play 1e, great game."
"sorry, I play 5e, which is a very different hobby than yours."

Who really does that? Well, you I guess. You tried to illustrate how they are different while ignore how there is much more that is similar. Like the concept of fantasy role playing in general. OR the dice. OR the iconic monsters, or classes, etc. If you think a 1e player and a 5e player can't have a conversation about D&D, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Minigiant]

I think the most important factor in bringing in new gamers is an enthusiastic player/GM who will teach them the ropes. Get them excited, and they'll happily learn any system.

This is the key to me.

Many OSR products I see don't invoke excitement. They often display dry rules with little explanation for why things are the way they are or what the worlds internals are.

So the onus is put on the DMs and GMs to invoke excitement and understanding as newer players are not coming from the same past as the original OS and don't share the same preconceived notions.

 

[Umbran]

I think that there is some truth to that, and I hate it.

I have stated before that the amazing thing about D&D "back in the day" when the Old School was the New School and the grognards were the wargamers who refused to play the newfangled roleplaying games ... was that it was so welcoming!

Sure, D&D had some popularity, but for the most part, it was always a haven for those that were the outcasts of the time- the people that preferred reading books to TV, that kids at the high school that weren't running for Prom King & Queen, the ones that knew when the re-runs of Star Trek:TOS were on the UHF and when Doctor Who was on PBS ('Murika!).

And this is where we stumble. "...it was always a haven for those that were the outcasts of the time..."

We nerds were not THE outcasts. We had no monopoly on it. We were only one set of outcasts. There were others - black kids were also outcasts. So were gay kids. Hispanic kids, asian kids. Heck, girls, were kind of outcast if they didn't fit a couple of particular molds, and they were still being seen as second-class citizens even if they did fit in. And that's not an exhaustive list of outcast folks, merely a demonstrative one.

And, back in the 80s, we nerds were not particularly welcoming to any of them! In returning to "back in the day" the OSR is not freeing itself from its exclusionary past.

Modern psychology is running into an issue, because a number of things that it thought was "normal human behavior" was actually "normal college student behavior". because much of the research was done with volunteer college students. Note that "college student" was selecting strongly for particular social class, gender, etc, but it was assumed that those generalized. That assumption was wrong.

Now, think of game design in the same way. We have a game that we say was popular... but it was really only hugely popular with a limited demographic. You cannot reasonably assume the same game play aspects are actually going to be popular with other demographics. Those other people have different life experiences, and so are likely to want some different things in their entertainment.

And, no, representation is only an absolute bare minimum of adaptation for the needs of others. Folks with different life experiences are apt to want fundamentally different gaming experiences and stories.

So, there is reason to think that returning to the old school is a self-limiting thing.

 

[loverdrive]

Trust me, the rest of the world thinks someone who plays 1e D&D and someone who plays 5e D&D are doing the same hobby. heck, they think anyone pretending to be an elf while rolling funny dice is the same hobby.

Well, sure. And my mother would call a hardcore punk "metal". As would the rest of the world. Let's pretend then, that all music with distorted guitars is the same.

She would also call Super Mario Bros and Fallout: New Vegas "stupid video games". As would the rest of the world who aren't interested in video games. So... Yeah.

Who really does that? Well, you I guess. You tried to illustrate how they are different while ignore how there is much more that is similar. Like the concept of fantasy role playing in general. OR the dice. OR the iconic monsters, or classes, etc. If you think a 1e player and a 5e player can't have a conversation about D&D, then I don't know what to tell you.

They can have a conversation, sure. They can tell each other of the things they are passionate about, and maybe learn something new and exiting. They may ignite passion for their respective things in each other. I'm not denying that, that would be stupid.

But the thing is, "oh, a high level fighter in 1E can have his own castle!" isn't going to help someone who is riding on a cart through Rime of the Frost Maiden in any way. If you'll insist that you're actually playing the same kind of game, it will probably be opposite of helpful, because now instead of enjoying a ride on an imaginary amusement park with explosions and cutscenes they would try to get off the cart. And then blame either you, or the GM, if it won't work.

But, if you'd frame it as a separate thing, they'd maybe get to enjoy their amusement park rides and your ascension to a landlord with a private army.

Oh, also. There are dice, some fantasy role-playing, iconic character classes, iconic monsters, iconic magic items, iconic spells and some FR lore in Betrayal at Baldur's Gate. Should term "D&D" include Betrayal at Baldur's Gate?

 

[Umbran]

The younger people I know assure me mullets are coming back. Unfortunately.

Well, then some of the aspects of old school games will come back, too, eventually.

But then, folks will have to remember the difference between being retro, and just being old.

 

[Imaro]

But the thing is, "oh, a high level fighter in 1E can have his own castle!" isn't going to help someone who is riding on a cart through Rime of the Frost Maiden in any way. If you'll insist that you're actually playing the same kind of game, it will probably be opposite of helpful, because now instead of enjoying a ride on an imaginary amusement park with explosions and cutscenes they would try to get off the cart. And then blame either you, or the GM, if it won't work.

You can play the same game... Basketball, in different ways... Professional vs. 3-man varsity vs. a gamr of one on one... but all still basketball.

But, if you'd frame it as a separate thing, they'd maybe get to enjoy their amusement park rides and your ascension to a landlord with a private army.[/B]

Or this is where someone asks about your game before they join and you tell them the premise.

Oh, also. There are dice, some fantasy role-playing, iconic character classes, iconic monsters, iconic magic items, iconic spells and some FR lore in Betrayal at Baldur's Gate. Should term "D&D" include Betrayal at Baldur's Gate?

Isn't that a boardgame? It would be a D&D boardgame then, but clearly under the hobby of boardgames. Is anyone really as pendantic as to claim different editions of the same game are a different hobby.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Narrows eyes. Glares suspiciously. Suspects someone is having a lark.

Or someone tried to screw someone else out of royalties ... and didn't get away with it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

As mush as I don't like a lot of OSR-adjacent stuff, I can see where even the groggiest of if has a lot of potential to bring in new players: Souls-like games exist.

High-difficulty, complex with an aggressive 'tough but fair' paternal turn that tells you to 'git gud' with the rules and learn by rote repetition and death and has a smaller subset fandom that will taunt and mocks anyone that plays anything less than diamond hard? It's a slam dunk.

Edit: I know 'not all OSR', just the ones that seem most vocal at me.