Pathfinder 2E Is this a fair review of PF2?

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Hello

I watched this review a few days ago. It confirmed that PF2 is not for me.


(EDIT: I am particularly curious about minute 12-20)

But now I'm wondering... is that a fair review? Maybe it's completely biased! So I thought I would ask people who have tried PF2 instead of just reading up a bit about it (like me).

thanks you for your input!
 
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willrali

Explorer
I like Puffin Forest.

This review, however, exaggerated a great deal and missed what I consider to be actual problems. Many of the things in the combat sequence he described only need to be written up once, and then quickly applied in-game. It would be fairly straightforward to concoct a 5e narrative that‘s just as tedious. (I had a grinding three hour encounter just the other day, where the applicability of passive perception was very much in dispute.)

PF2 has a lot of options, and with options come complexity. In my experience, as long as the numbers for expected manoeuvres are done in advance, play is very fast. If not, there’s a lot of referencing and flipping. So: if you don‘t want to do the numbers in advance (about 30 min-1 hr work for a character), maybe look elsewhere.

What he doesn’t focus on is my biggest gripe with the game: the not-great organization. Sure, they tried to make a step-by-step character creation guide right at the beginning. But there are so many conditions, keywords, effects and whatnot that are integral to your abilities, it quickly becomes a bewildering ‘where’s Waldo’ nightmare. It’s like reading a math textbook where the definitions for key concepts are buried in arbitrary places. I actually wrote up my own game-term glossaries and flow-charty rules references for the table so people could actually play the damned game. With those in place, though, the game is fast, flexible and fun.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
Hello

I watched this review a few days ago. It confirmed that PF2 is not for me.


But now I'm wondering... is that a fair review? Maybe it's completely biased! So I thought I would ask people who have tried PF2 instead of just reading up a bit about it (like me).

thanks you for your input!
What does it say for those of us preferring the written word and/or not having 40 minutes of time?
 


Kaodi

Hero
Printed books are good to have for the apocal- pauses and looks around -for when the lights go out. But otherwise even online resources for Paizo rulebooks are officially supported so why crack open the books except for maybe for straight readthroughs?

In any case I have not watched the video and I do not plan too. Hearing about it has already gotten boring on Discord.
 

I had already watched the video. It pretty much tracks my experience.

Honestly, whether you enjoy PF2 will depend on both the players and your play circumstances. Even one player who can’t remember the standard bonuses will slow the game to a crawl (moreso than 5e, because there are more bonuses and they are more dynamic).

Players devote more time to mechanically customizing their characters. For Puffin (and for me), this extra time spent doesn’t really pay off, but it does for some players.
 

Retreater

Legend
Printed books are good to have for the apocal- pauses and looks around -for when the lights go out. But otherwise even online resources for Paizo rulebooks are officially supported so why crack open the books except for maybe for straight readthroughs?

In any case I have not watched the video and I do not plan too. Hearing about it has already gotten boring on Discord.
Yes, this apocalypse has actually proven the value of Online resources more than print books, based on the amount of time I'm gaming online.
 

Retreater

Legend
To answer the OP's question, I don't think he's giving it a fair review. I watched this video over the weekend and found his review of PF2 to be much like his retrospective of D&D4: full of exaggerations, hyperbole, and a snarky, whining tone. I'm not saying that his assessment is wrong - because PF2 certainly isn't for everyone - just that his presentation was unfair to his viewers who might be interested in the game.
Yes, PF2 is certainly more complex than 5e. We all expected that. But is it streamlined compared to PF1, absolutely. Does it give more options for traditional play and customization than 4E, heck yes. It also succeeds in presenting a ruleset that is more uniformly designed than 5e, options to buy magical equipment (which is a big selling point to many players), fun tactical options for monsters, a far better designed encounter design system, the best ability score creation system I've seen in a D&D adjacent system (as well as a robust, interesting character creation system). It brings martial characters up in power to feel like they're equal contributors in combat. The three action economy is the best model of actions "D&D" has probably ever had. The tiers of success (critical failure, failure, success, critical success) makes every die roll important, regardless of the modifiers. Casters can power up their spells to have greater effects if they have the actions in their turn to spend doing it.
I'm not saying he's wrong. If the system isn't for him, that's fine. But I don't think he's fair about it, and I think the video is a disservice to his viewers who may want to give it a try. Which I would encourage everyone to do. The rules are free online. My group came into it thinking we were going to hate it, and tried it as almost a joke. It's now that group's preferred fantasy RPG.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I don't have 47 minutes spare to watch it, unfortunately. Any chance of a synopsis of the main points?
What does it say for those of us preferring the written word and/or not having 40 minutes of time?

All right.

Tl'DR: Look at 12-20 min, is this real? Then 21 to 28 min for even more complexity.

(keep in mind that this is my synopsis and I'm trying to be fair, but I'm also trying not to spend too much time on it, and also that as much as I am trying to be fair, I might not get it right).

First, perspective of the reviewer: has been playing 5e a lot - so much so that he almost forgot the old 3.X days.

He's positive about the amount of options and customization you have for your character. He's happy about buying magical gear, although it turned out to be less fun that he thought.

He's very impressed with the 3 action system. (honestly, so am I)

He's concerned about the status/conditions - they are the foundation of the game and they are 48 of them, which makes learning the game more difficult. Some spells description are very cursory. For example, someone cast the good old classic "invisibility" spell. Now I wasn't super happy how the rules were layed out in 5e - you had to dig around to find the consequences of this. PF2 is worse based on his example.

The invisibility spell gives the invisibility condition
The invisibility condition says you have the undetected condition
The undetected conditions means that enemies attacking you have the flat footed condition and furthermore, they have a 50/50 miss chance

He talks about skill spread - more variation than 5e, and much much bigger spread in numbers, but less fiddly than skill ranks (think 3.X). The concept of bounded accuracy is gone and this has consequence. A level 1 monster can't hit a level 7 PC, and a party of level 7 PCs will struggle immensely to even hit a level 12 monster. On the other hand, niche protection is more present - if the wizard can't figure our a complex arcane problem, it's going to be very rare that the barbarian just rolls well and figures it out.

He mentions that it is pretty easy for the GM to adjust the numbers quickly - maybe these are goblin veterans, or maybe this giant is weak? However, it can make the PCs feel that their increasing numbers are meaningless because the challenges just keep adjusting.

The +10 crit rules means that it is important to get the exact number for each attack.

... I'm not listening to all of this again, it's like a nightmare of complexity - I'm sure as heck not typing it all out. Start at 12:05 to about 20:15 for the description of ONE ATTACK. 21-26 min is the attack sequence for one ranger NOT INCLUDING DAMAGE. 26-28.15 is the damage.

It took him half a day to write the script to describe his ranger's attack/damage, and he's not even 100% sure he got it right.

Bottom line is that you can gain a certain amount of proficiency with the system, but then you hit a plateau - you can't seem to go faster than that. There are many conditional bonuses/conditions that change a lot, and core elements of the system make the combats go quite slow. The multi-attack penalty significantly slow things down, especially for the GM. It also makes time prepping sessions longer.

The transition of PF1 to PF2 in Golarion makes using old pathfinder adventures difficult. A tons of villains and problems in PF1 golarion in PF2 have been solved!

Crafting rules has problems. They are best done off-table, but this requires back and forth with the GM, and off-session gaming is... not great.

Final thoughts: The game is not for him. The character creations rules are great sure, but that's not playing the game! All that complexity doesn't add much to the actual play experience, and the combat is too slow. Sure you have great choices of action, but each choice has a wave of consequences that take time to resolve. The 3 action system is great but it could have been much more simpler. They ended up converting their PF campaign back to 5e.
 

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