is this balanced?

what do you think about the new cleric class in this post?

  • overpowerd

    Votes: 20 64.5%
  • underpowerd

    Votes: 6 19.4%
  • just right

    Votes: 5 16.1%

kolikeos

First Post
i've been thinking about the following changes to the cleric class:
1.no spontaneouse healing
2.no turn undead
3.martial weapons proficiency
4.three domains instead of two
5.two domain spells instead of one
6.scribe scroll

do you think this is overpowerd, underpowerd or just right compared to the original cleric?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I'm not sure if you're actually looking for replies, so you may wish to ask for explanations of opinions. As for mine, I'd say your tweaks are fairly well balanced, if perhaps somewhat underbalanced. The spontaneous healing is quite a potent tool, expecially for lower-level characters who can only prepare so many spells. Turn undead attempts power the divine feats from Complete Divine and Complete Warrior (some of which are QUITE useful). Losing both abilities is a definite hit to the Cleric.

HOWEVER, extra domain spells help to ensure that the potent "just-in-case" spells don't take up too many of the Cleric's healing spell preparations. One important tweak, though, would involve the domain special abilities that rely upon the turn/rebuke undead ability, such as Plant and elemental domains. To keep those fairly standard domains as attractive options, their turning/rebuking of unusual creature types would need to be somehow replaced.
 

The changes mostly favor "battle clerics" who use their domain spells and combat ability to overshadow other characters, like wizards or fighters rather than to help the party. (The three domains also mean the cleric is an ideal "dipping" class, but you could fix that by staggering the third one a bit.) Players who use the cleric this way won't be concerned too much about the loss of spontaneous healing, or about the loss of turn undead (unless they like to use lots of divine feats), so they'll be more powerful. But the problem, I think, isn't so much that you're increasing the cleric's power as that you're encouraging what is IMO a problematic style of play: the cleric is powerful in order to give players an incentive to play a support class, not to enable him to step on the toes of other characters as a matter of course.
 

comrade raoul said:
But the problem, I think, isn't so much that you're increasing the cleric's power as that you're encouraging what is IMO a problematic style of play: the cleric is powerful in order to give players an incentive to play a support class, not to enable him to step on the toes of other characters as a matter of course.

Quoted for truth.

The spontaneous cure thing isn't a power-incentive for Clerics, it's there to help everyone else in the party.

-- N
 

the cleric is currently one of the most powerful PHB classes IMO. with all the buff and support spells they can choose they can outshine even a specalized fighter. the thing is they spend most of the time behind the fighter, healing him because the BBEG is beattin the crap outa him.

also if you remove the spontanious casting of heal spells, your going to have a lot more player deaths due to the fact that the cleric is going to have to mem almost only cure spells otherwise he'll run outa cures way too fast.
 

I wouldn't say overpowered but it's more powerful than the standard cleric.

Turn Undead is useful but you can fight undead in other ways. Spontaneous casting usually means that sometimes you get to use your non-healing spells without any risk :p

But (all) martial weapon prof is a potent boon especially at low-mid levels. It is after all one of the reasons to multiclass into Fighter or Paladin for a single level. And so is the 3rd domain special power, depending on the domain selection it can be alone worth more than either Turn Undead or Spontaneous casting.

Anyway, I said it's not overpowered.
 

it seems most of you think that my new cleric is overpowerd (although not many people voted) i originaly thought that the spontaneous healing is the most powerful thing a cleric has but i didnt want to be the one who just goes around and heals all the time. in the game im going to play in im probably going to be the front liner and since i wanted to cast cleric spells and be the front liner i thought about those changes to the class.

anyway, if any of you can suggest an alternative cleric that has the same spells, is more combat oriented and is not just a healer it would be most helpful to me. thanks in advance.
 

Just take the War domain.

Another thought is the Warpriest PrC from the Complete divine, which gives you lowered casting for increased combat abilities, and some special mass healing.

Generaly, Clerics are about on par with Rangers for front line work (Similar HP, better armor but worse BAB. I don't think you need to do anything beyond selecting your domains.
 

I'd reccommend you just start out with a normal cleric, and later on you can multiclass a bit if needed to boost your melee effectiveness, if you feel you need to. Of course, around the middle levels onward, clerics have access to the Divine Power spell, which temporarily changes their Base Attack Bonus to that of an equal-level fighter.

One possibility: start out as a 1st-level, lawful neutral, human cleric of Heironeus, with the Law and War domains, and choose to rebuke/command undead instead of turn/destroy them. This means you will cast spontaneous Inflict X Wounds spells instead of Cure X Wounds spells. Multiclass to monk at 2nd-level, then resume cleric advancement at 3rd-level onward. Then you could cast a spontaneous Inflict Light Wounds (or Moderate, Serious, or Critical, depending on your level) and punch an enemy in the same round, dealing 1d6+1d8+1 damage + your Strength modifier (with the 1d8+1 varying depending on your cleric level and what Inflict spell you cast; i.e. an Inflict Critical Wounds cast as a 7th-level cleric will, when making an unarmed strike in this way, deal 1d6+4d8+7 damage + your Strength modifier).

Of course, casting a spell within melee reach will require you to cast defensively to avoid attacks of opportunity, but with the Combat Casting feat, 5 ranks of Concentration, and 12 Constitution for instance, you would have a +10 on Concentration checks to cast defensively right at 2nd-level (+9 at 1st-level, but at 1st-level you wouldn't be a monk yet and wouldn't have as much incentive to use Inflict spells). Any time you face a foe with high AC, you can just slap them with Inflict spells as melee touch attacks, rather than using unarmed strikes to deliver the spell effect.

You could go the unarmored route or the well-armored route this way; at 1st-level you'd go with the best armor you could afford, after buying a longsword, wooden or silver holy symbol, and basic supplies. Once/if you multiclass into monk at 2nd-level, you might choose to sell your armor and thereby retain full use of your minor monkish abilities; your Wisdom modifier would be added to your AC, and you could focus on getting magic Bracers of Armor for a further AC boost, or you could get the party's sorcerer/wizard to cast Mage Armor on you at the start of each fight (Mage Armor isn't limited to personal use). Most likely though, it would be best to stick with using regular armor, and getting it magically enhanced later. Unless you have high Dexterity and Wisdom, and easy access to Dex/Wis/AC-boosting magic items. Even unarmored, the cleric spell Magic Vestment can grant your clothes an enhancement bonus to AC (which counts effectively as an armor bonus to AC, but without actually being from armor).

If you go the armored route, get full plate as soon as possible. In either case, don't bother with a shield; you'll need one hand fairly free in order to perform somatic spell components (clerics don't have arcane spell failure chances, but they still need a free hand for casting most spells). You'll wield your longsword two-handed, as you can remove a hand briefly for spellcasting no problem, and then resume your two-handed grip immediately afterward. Two-handed, you'll get 1.5x your Strength bonus to damage with the longsword, and your War domain and choice of Heironeus as a patron deity will give your Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword) and Weapon Focus (Longsword). Use spells like Divine Favor, Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength, Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Power, and such to improve your melee attack and damage bonuses. Also use spells like Shield of Faith, Bear's Endurance (just Endurance in 3.0 rules, dunno which you're using), and Magic Vestment to bolster your defenses.

If you get the chance to rebuke and command some undead, you can use them to assist you in combat. They can be commanded to flank with you in melee, or attempt grappling an opponent (thus causing that opponent to lose any Dex bonus to AC against you, while you proceed to hack away with the longsword), or use 'aid another' actions to improve your attack rolls or Armor Class. Or they can just be commanded to attack other enemies and keep them occupied while you handle other foes. Undead can also be sent forward to trigger any traps by walking right into them or the like, if you don't have a capable rogue to disarm traps more effectively. At middle and later levels, you can cast Animate Dead or Create Undead on enemy corpses if needed, to acquire undead minions.
 

Ark, do good deities actually allow their neutral-aligned clerics to channel negative energy? I know that they do not let you case [Evil] spells, and I thought they didn't allow the negative channelign either.
 

Remove ads

Top