Is this how marking works?

[aco175]

We have been playing for a while now but seem still a bit confused on marks from the fighter. The rules seem to say that whenever the marked creature makes an attack or moves they get a free atack on them by the fighter. My main question is whether this rule is the general one or the specific. One of the main points about rules is that specific ones trump the general ones and this seems like it could go both ways.

I can see where it is a character ability, so that makes it specific. I can also see where there could/would/should be ways to get around it for better action. I'm not looking to take away from the rule, but the fighter is negating many abilities of monsters and npc's.

One example from the other night. There was a dark creaper who attacked the thief, the fighter charged over and marked the creaper. The creaper tried to shift and gain concealment as a minor action, and got whacked from the fighter. Another example is the troll who was marked keeps getting whacked each time it takes an opportunity attack because of its reach, not that the reach allowed the atk, but just allowed the troll to have more.

 

[Llamas Notsheep]

A couple of key points:

First, yes, the fighter gets an immediate interrupt melee basic attack if a creature he's marking attacks someone other than him or shifts. Note that this is an immediate action, and you only get one immediate action per round. So if the whole party is repeatedly provoking OAs from that troll, the fighter doesn't get an attack every single time. That remains true regardless of how many targets the fighter marks. He can mark 8 enemies with a close burst 1, but if they all shift away or attack other people, he still only gets one immediate action.

Second, the combat challenge attack (the fighter's benefit from marking) is distinct from opportunity attacks. It doesn't stop enemies in their tracks the way a fighter's OA does, and it doesn't get the wis mod bonus to attack rolls of an OA. And unlike the combat challenge immediate interrupt, an OA is an opportunity action, of which characters get one per combatant's turn. So the troll can attack each player that provokes an OA, while the fighter can only respond once.

Third, the "marked" condition doesn't mean you get an attack. You'll find that a number of monsters can mark the PCs. Marking just means the character takes a -2 to attack rolls that don't include the marker as a target. The fighter's immediate interrupt attack comes from the combat challenge class feature.

Also, just to make sure you know (it sounded like it, but I couldn't tell for sure), having reach attacks doesn't give threatening reach. Only monsters with threatening reach get OAs when characters move around when not adjacent to the monster. That is, monsters with reach still only threaten the squares adjacent to them.

 

[Kordeth]

We have been playing for a while now but seem still a bit confused on marks from the fighter. The rules seem to say that whenever the marked creature makes an attack or moves they get a free atack on them by the fighter. My main question is whether this rule is the general one or the specific. One of the main points about rules is that specific ones trump the general ones and this seems like it could go both ways.

Erm--in order for "specific beats general" to apply, you have to have a more specific rule than the fighter's combat challenge attack. What rule are you seeing that you think could override Combat Challenge?

I can see where it is a character ability, so that makes it specific. I can also see where there could/would/should be ways to get around it for better action. I'm not looking to take away from the rule, but the fighter is negating many abilities of monsters and npc's.

If it didn't, the fighter would be a bad defender.

One example from the other night. There was a dark creaper who attacked the thief, the fighter charged over and marked the creaper. The creaper tried to shift and gain concealment as a minor action, and got whacked from the fighter.

Yes, that's the entire point of Combat Challenge, the fighter gets to whack the marked enemy when it shifts or attacks somebody else.

Another example is the troll who was marked keeps getting whacked each time it takes an opportunity attack because of its reach, not that the reach allowed the atk, but just allowed the troll to have more.

Remember you can only take one immediate action per round, no matter how many times the troll's attacks trigger Combat Challenge.

 

[Mort_Q]

Another example is the troll who was marked keeps getting whacked each time it takes an opportunity attack because of its reach, not that the reach allowed the atk, but just allowed the troll to have more.

Remember you can only take one immediate action per round, no matter how many times the troll's attacks trigger Combat Challenge.

Are you talking about OAs? 'Cause they're not limited to one per round.

 

[Llamas Notsheep]

Are you talking about OAs? 'Cause they're not limited to one per round.

No, what he said is exactly right. You can only take one immediate action per round. And one opportunity action per combatant's turn.

 

[Mort_Q]

No, what he said is exactly right. You can only take one immediate action per round. And one opportunity action per combatant's turn.

Well, yes, I know. It was the context that I was questioning.

 

[Lizard]

Monsters know the conditions imposed on them. So they will stop doing things which give the fighters free whacks, and start tearing into the fighter. If he's got more than one or two marked, he's going to be getting very badly focus fired, and his own damage output is not going to be up to that of most monsters. Even with his high AC and hitpoints, he's going to getting hurt. Also don't forget a fighter's mark is very transitory; if he doesn't re-mark, it's gone, and there's only a few ways to mark more than one creature per round, and most of them are encounter or daily powers.

 

[Kordeth]

Are you talking about OAs? 'Cause they're not limited to one per round.

No, I'm talking about immediate actions--that's why I said "immediate actions" and not "opportunity attacks." It doesn't matter if Good King Draxall's entire VII Legion lines up and does the can-can past the marked troll in question, provoking 5,000 opportunity attacks in a single round. The fighter who marked the troll only gets one Combat Challenge attack.

 

[Meeble]

Another distinction to make here (that helped me out a LOT as a DM) is that the fighter can *not* stop an enemy from shifting. The fighter power that allows the PC to stop enemy movement only applies to the fighter's opportunity attacks.

Since the class feature that lets the fighter attack a shifting enemy is not an opportunity attack, the fighter does not stop the enemies shift.

So in your (the OP's) example, the enemy would be able to shift away. The fighter would get a free shot to deal some extra damage beforehand, but the shift would still happen.

 

[aco175]

Whoa! I'm stuck in 3rd edition, I thought that you only get one opportunity atk. I guess it should have dawned on me since I did not see a feat to let you have more. Bad news for the party next solo BBEG with reach comes along.

Or rather threatening reach, which seems way better then regular reach if I'm thinking right.

Combat challenge is way different then opportunity atks where CC allows the monster to finish what he was doing, such as move or atk someone else. As long as the move does not trigger an OA which would stop the monster cold.

Quick scenario; say the fighter marks an orc with CC and the orc on his turn atks the thief behind him, he triggers the CC and the fighter gets his immediate action on the orc's turn to whack him. Now on the orc leader's turn is next and he has a power that lets the marked orc get a free atk. The marked orc would be a fool to atk the thief again because the fighter would get another atk from CC because the fighter has another immediate action being its the orc leader's turn?

But if this poor orc atk on the thief landed him a hit from CC, he is free to move away from the fighter and not get another hit on him because the fighter is out of immediate actions. but if the orc tried to move past the fighter he would still trigger OA and end his movt if he was hit?

Thank you