Is this paladin in trouble?

[gizmo33]

Yank the paladin-hood, it's like a bandaid - one swift motion. Maybe give her a shot of whisky to numb the pain.

Blackguard has to be evil though, right? She just might be neutral. Perhaps their needs to be a "Grizzled Veteran" prestige class for fallen paladins. A fighter who gains an extra feat or two to make up for the lost paladin abilities. That would probably fit better with a party of pixies anyway.

At 10th level they get a "Redemption" feat whereby if they are slain, they have the opportunity to die in a heroic and lawful fashion, being granted their paladinhood and going to the great paladin castle in the sky. (Of course, this being 3E, they'll be raised and back in the dungeon in about 5 minutes).

 

[Voadam]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

ThoughtBubble and Land Outcast: Yes, I am the DM. Yes, I am aware of Rule Zero. I suppose my question was more along the lines of, "What would you do in this situation?"

I let my players self identify alignment and don't sweat it in my straight D&D game. If they are comfortable with what they are doing then I am fine, though I will sometimes ask if they want to change alignment and give them the opportunity to do so if they choose.

I have only had not player initiated alignment change from things like divine retribution and curses.

The player may feel her character has turned nonlawful or not. I'd leave it up to her.

 

[Voadam]

Oh and Forgotten Heroes: Paladin from Maladin's Gate has a bunch of paladin variant classes, one of which is NG instead of LG.

 

[Taluron]

Another possibility. When 3.5 came out Dragon mag published variants of the paladin for each alignment. Powers and spells similar in theme to the paladin but more specific to each aligment. In #310 the Anarch (CN), Avenger (CG) or Sentinel (NG) might be more appropriate to the party/playstyle. THe Enforcer (LN) might even be a reasonable choice for the King;'s Swords

Back issues should be available from Paizo.

 

[librarius_arcana]

You're DMing this right?

She's not in trouble unless you decide she is.

Everything else is semantics.

True, just give her a warning if she starts to cross the line

 

[painandgreed]

When I DM I figure that paladin's know their own alignment and have a conscience that would warn them. If they start commiting gross unlawful actions, I warn them that the course of action they stated is unlawfull and if they really wish to do it. It is their knowledgable choice. If this happens too much, I'll warn them that their alignment is in danger of changing and agian let them reconsider their actions. Eventually, I would warn them that the next action they are about to take will change their alignment and cause the loss of their paladinhood, and agian lt them choose. This might also be accompanied by OOC discussions. As others have stated, one or even a few nuetral or even chaotic actions does not change their alingment alone. If they otherwise act lawfully, they can get away with such actions indefinatly (when they really matter). Only when they prefrom such actions and cease to otherwise be lawful does their alignment threaten to change. After all this warning and such, by time the character makes that last choice, they have been fully warned and are doing so either because they figure the fall makes sence RPing wise or they are sick of playing a paladin and ready to take the character elsewhere.

One of the worst things a DM can do is spring "You violated your alignment/code and have lost your paladin powers" out of the blue and without warning. Alignments are one of the touchy grey areas of D&D most likely to cause arguements, and avoiding such arguements can only improve the game.

 

[Blackwind]

Wow, there are some great ideas here and I'm afraid it would take me at least an hour to address everyone's comments directly.

Hussar: I agree completely. I also tend to like my Paladins LG. OTOH, I haven't played one for ten years, probably; and yet, even then (at age 11, and armed with my Complete Paladin's Handbook) I wrote out my own Code of Chivalry. You can bet that Lane's player and I are doing that ASAP.

As for the variants and PrCs, none of them seem to fit Lane's concept.

WayneLigon: thanks for that Lawful and Chaotic article. It does make sense, although I sometimes wonder why they didn't call it Order instead of Law... it almost sounds like Lawful characters are Confucian and Chaotic characters are Taoist. Well, okay, that's probably not the best analogy. I've never liked D&D's pseudo-Gnostic Gygaxian cosmology anyway. Even without the Absolut Morality, it's ****ing goofy.

Elf Witch: it's going to be fun either way. If she betrays the Citadel, they'll no doubt send the King's Shadows to hunt her down. If she betrays the party, they'll probably kill her and take her stuff. For a brand new player, she sure has chosen a difficult role.

And by the way, this *is* a very RP-heavy game, with much more focus on intrigue than dungeon-trashing and players who care more about character development than powergaming.

Umbran: dead on. What I'm wondering is whether her powers derive from adherence to a *personal* Code or from her status as an agent of the King's Swords (and sworn defender of the Brelish crown).

gizmo33: very funny.

And finally, I want to add one last little thing, regarding the nature of alignment in Eberron. I quote (ECS, p. 35): "A cleric who violates the tenets of her church or deity might risk punishment at the hands of the church... but risks no loss of spells or class features and need not atone. This rule supersedes the information under Ex-Clerics on page 33 of the Player's Handbook."

Meanwhile, on p. 39: "Paladins are called to a strict and exalted life, and are mystically held to a higher standard than even clerics. A cleric of the Church of the Silver Flame can fall into heresy or even adopt an evil alignment and still retain all his abilities, but a paladin must rise above the corruption that plagues almost every church and cling to the highest ideals of her faith."

Why the double standard?

 

[Quartz]

You say that this is a new player, right? How about discussing the issue with the other, presumably experienced, players? "Hey guys, X is coming along nicely as a player, isn't she? Well, the way things are progressing, her character stands to lose her paladinhood, and I think she'd not like that at all. Any ideas?"

 

[Zog]

And finally, I want to add one last little thing, regarding the nature of alignment in Eberron. I quote (ECS, p. 35): "A cleric who violates the tenets of her church or deity might risk punishment at the hands of the church... but risks no loss of spells or class features and need not atone. This rule supersedes the information under Ex-Clerics on page 33 of the Player's Handbook."

Meanwhile, on p. 39: "Paladins are called to a strict and exalted life, and are mystically held to a higher standard than even clerics. A cleric of the Church of the Silver Flame can fall into heresy or even adopt an evil alignment and still retain all his abilities, but a paladin must rise above the corruption that plagues almost every church and cling to the highest ideals of her faith."

Why the double standard?

Because, to paraphrase:

"The world is not as it should be. It is harsh, cruel and unkind. That's why there's us. Paladins. We live our lives as if the World was as it should be, to show it what it can be."

Yay. My new favorite Paladin saying.

I'd also reccomend some reading: The Deed of Paksennarion by Elizabeth Moon - BEST Paladin I've ever read. Also great: The War God's Own by David Weber. And The Legend of Huma by Richard Knaak. Any person wanting to play a Paladin in a game I was GMing would be required to read at least one of those books.

Also good -

 

[atom crash]

If this was my game and I was in your position as DM, I'd have a talk with the player and help her work out her Paladin Code (as Umbran stated, though I'd give the player the ability to help me hash out the code). I'd also consider having her church either 1) give her a phylactery of faithfulness to help her "stay on course" or 2) assign a handler who also acts as a Lord Confessor.

The phylactery might be the better option, because that way you as DM can just tell her when she might stray from her ideals rather than you as NPC berate her after she's strayed. I just see a lot of potential for inter-party conflict with the paladin torn between her LG NPC and the CG party members.