Is turning useless?

[Urbanmech]

Are the desiginers trying to make turning undead useless? This mainly applies to the Monster Manual 3 Undead. Almost all of whom have hit dice at least twice their CR.

Boneclaw CR 5, 10 Hd +2 Turn Resistance
Bonedrinker CR 6, 11 Hd
Charnelhound CR 13, 21 Hd
Deathshrieker CR 15, 18 Hd +4 Turn Resistance
Drowned CR 8, 20 Hd!
Dust Wight CR 7, 16 Hd
Ephemeral swarm CR 5, 12 Hd
Grimweird CR 11, Hd 12 (finally one the cleric has a shot at)
Necronaut CR 14, Hd 32!
Plague Spewer CR 10, Hd 16
Salt Mummy CR 8, Hd 12

Even rolling a 20 on a turning check a cleric will not turn most of these critters that they face as an equal CR challenge. Is turning being turned into a class feature to power divine feats and deal with skeletons and zombies?

 

[Liquidsabre]

Hmm, interesting. Sure looks like it. No problems there really, so the waves of zombies and skeletons are turning fodder it's these undead nasties the group has to fight.

Not bad really, side-lining the cleric's turning ability. Most folk have always thought the ability to make cleric's too powerful vs. undead monsters making CR = cakewalk.

 

[apsuman]

Are the desiginers trying to make turning undead useless? This mainly applies to the Monster Manual 3 Undead. Almost all of whom have hit dice at least twice their CR.

Boneclaw CR 5, 10 Hd +2 Turn Resistance
Bonedrinker CR 6, 11 Hd
Charnelhound CR 13, 21 Hd
Deathshrieker CR 15, 18 Hd +4 Turn Resistance
Drowned CR 8, 20 Hd!
Dust Wight CR 7, 16 Hd
Ephemeral swarm CR 5, 12 Hd
Grimweird CR 11, Hd 12 (finally one the cleric has a shot at)
Necronaut CR 14, Hd 32!
Plague Spewer CR 10, Hd 16
Salt Mummy CR 8, Hd 12

Even rolling a 20 on a turning check a cleric will not turn most of these critters that they face as an equal CR challenge. Is turning being turned into a class feature to power divine feats and deal with skeletons and zombies?

According to the SRD, the best a player can turn is cleric level +4, improved turning would allow that to be cleric level +5. If we assume a "classic" party of four, a CR of their level would consume 25% of their resources. This depends upon the campaign, but if the above creatures are the BBEG, you probably do not want them to be able to (easily) turn them. However, if the BBEG has a CR 2-4 higher, then the level of the party would be 2-4 higher, meaning that these above monsters not being the "end all be all bad mammajamma" then turning them becomes easier or possible.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

When turning was a once per day thing in days of old, it made sense to allow the possibility of doing something impressive on a good roll. Now that a cleric (or paladin) could be popping off 4-10 turns per day, it is too powerful as a standard cleric ability if effective against a BBEG.

I am fine with Turning mainly as a means to clear out undead minions.

 

[Wish]

On the other hand, if you want to be really good at it, you can be. With the right set up, you can start off turning at 5 levels higher. Add in complete divine and you can make every turning attempt a greater turning. If your DM lets you change items slots or combine items, you can end up with charisma mod +5 on the check (otherwise just +2). If you started with a reasonably high charisma, and use a cloak to boost it, you're looking at consistently turning with a +12 on the check, starting at 5 HD above your level, and you're looking at turning 6-9 HD over your level and automatically destroying 3d6+level+10 HD worth of undead.

Of course, at this point you've invested heavily in magic items, both domains, 2 feats, and a good stat that could have gone elsewhere.

 

[mikebr99]

heh...

They may just be trying to stem the tide of PrCs, such as Morninglord... with improved turning, sun domain, greater turning, exalted turning, vicious hyperactive turning.. etc.


Mike

 

[Mr. Kaze]

According to the SRD, the best a player can turn is cleric level +4, improved turning would allow that to be cleric level +5.

Until, that is, they get a Phylactery (or somesuch) of Undead Turning that jacks them up by another cleric level +4. Using the +2 Knowledge(Religion) synnergy check, the +3 from a Circlet (or somesuch) of Persuasion, and figuring a 14 CHA, the average turn check is going to come out at 17.5 -- that's Caster Level +2 for a "Caster level +7" average turn check, or "Caster level +9" maximum and "Caster level +4" minimum. So a turn/rebuke build level 11 cleric can routinely disable a 14 HD vampire with it's +4 turn resistance (which is generally a CR 16 creature and a what, level 22 character?) for 10 rounds as a standard action at a range of up to 60'. No save. No recourse. Unless you give the vampire 3 more HD to make him unturnable by that punk level 11 cleric -- but that's going to be hard on the whole party, not just the cleric.

Frankly, IME, the undead turn/rebuke mechanic is screwed up in how it interacts with CR -- if you do have somebody that can turn/rebuke such a creature, then the CR is too high, but if you don't then there's a good chance that the CR is too low. Net result is that the CR is never "just right" and we've once again demonstrated that everybody hates a good compromise.

Next round of character building, we're going to go looking for a variant.

::Kaze

 

[Nail]

My Clr 12 has the Phylactery of Undead Turning, and a Chr boosting item, plus a Focus Turning feat from Ghostwalk.....the upshot of it is, I turn things as an 18th level cleric and have a +8 on the turn check. Did I mention my PC is a Sun cleric?

Nonetheless, the UD bad guys in my CR range could give me a good run for my money. Most supplements make sure that HD is nearly twice CR. It's a common complaint that at higher levels, clerical undead turning is worthless, even with the build I've got.

 

[Nail]

In fact, just zombies could be a problem. Look at the zombie template:

  Challenge
CR   Rating 
1/2    1/8 
1      1/4 
2      1/2 
4       1 
6       2 
8–10    3 
12–14  4 
15–16  5 
18–20  6

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Until, that is, they get a Phylactery (or somesuch) of Undead Turning that jacks them up by another cleric level +4. Using the +2 Knowledge(Religion) synnergy check, the +3 from a Circlet (or somesuch) of Persuasion, and figuring a 14 CHA, the average turn check is going to come out at 17.5 -- that's Caster Level +2 for a "Caster level +7" average turn check, or "Caster level +9" maximum and "Caster level +4" minimum. So a turn/rebuke build level 11 cleric can routinely disable a 14 HD vampire with it's +4 turn resistance (which is generally a CR 16 creature and a what, level 22 character?) for 10 rounds as a standard action at a range of up to 60'.

I must be misunderstanding something. As far as I know, turning is based on cleric level, not caster level. You can pump your caster level until the cow's come home, but the maximum hd a cleric can turn is still cleric level +4 (+5 with Improved Turning).

Yes, you can increase your charisma, get a Circlet of Pursuasion, have ranks in Knowledge (Religion) etc. etc. , but all that does is increase your chances of turning undead at cleric level +4/+5. It does not increase the hd limit of undead you can turn.

These new undead are well-nigh unturnable.

I don't think cleric turning is too powerful, unless the campaign is undead-only. Even so, though, I don't have a problem with these new undead. No ability should be effective 100% of the time. The new undead give the DM more options. For undead encounters were turning is possible, there are vampires, mummies, ghouls, ghasts, etc. For the occasional undead where turning is ineffective, we now have several good undead to use. Or, we can always wait a few levels and throw a pack of these guys at the party when they are eventually turnable.

Edit: Hrm, just took a look at the Phylactery of Undead Turning, and it does indeed allow the cleric to turn at +4 levels higher, so a cleric with Improved Turning and the phylactery would turn at Cleric Level +9, as stated by Mr. Kaze. (Your use of caster level bamboozled me, sir! ) I suppose these new undead are a good reason to get the phylactery, then.