Particle_Man
Explorer
Vow of Poverty rule #1: As the character with Vow of Poverty increases in level, the probability of that character becoming a light source approaches 1. 
Is Vow of Poverty broken?
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I didn't say that it didn't. In fact, I specifically said that it DOES but that using it RAW is not the intention of the designers. I know that this is the D&D rules forum- where we discuss what the rules mean. However, just because a rule is written a particular way, doesn't make it correct. RAW is important, but using your brain to analyze RAW is every bit as important. I'm not talking about house-ruling, but rather trying to decipher what the designers meant when drafted a rule a particular way.
Consider, for a moment, old errors from 2Ed. In the 1st printing of 2Ed, Rogues were proficient in broadsword, and Bards were allowed to multiclass. Problem- no broadsword was statted out in the book, and the next reprint of 2Ed omitted multiclassing Bards. RAW, Rogues were proficient in a non-existent weapon; Bards could or could not multiclass based on which PHB you had. The Monstrous Compendium listings for the standard vampire and Oriental vampire are identical- elsewhere they are not.
In other words, RAW is just the beginning of rules analysis.
My contention is that VoP (as well as some of the other vows) is meant to help players simulate the saintly human beings and dieties (depending on the particular theology) of the real world, like Padre Pio, Buddha, Jesus, etc.- to whom are attributed miracles. Many of the Exalted Feats are obviously based on aspects of miracles attributed to such saints- Nimbus of Light, Stigmata.
To use a strict RAW reading of VoP would prevent such a PC from doing things that most closely resemble the very deeds such saints are said to have done seems, IMHO, ludicrous.
In my previous post, I bolded the spells I thought most closely resembled the deeds of the saints. I should have included Atonement, Prayer, and Walk on Water...but the point is that many of the spells you would expect a god's most favored servants are precisely those that are omitted by using VoP RAW. To further highlight the problem, I present the complete alphabetical list of Cleric/Paladin PHB spells not requiring divine foci (with level in parentheses), eliminating the evil spells as well, and domains listed when it is the only way to gain access to the spell:
(* Note: Some of these spells, such as Legend Lore, and Miracle have expensive components, but I didn't want to take the time to examine component costs for all of these spells.)
If you don't see one you expect, there's a reason.
VoP Clerics and Paladins can't bless anything but water or weapons, cast most protection spells, can't consecrate anything, can barely detect or dispel anything that REALLY needs detecting, help anyone atone, or bring back the dead..what kind of divine servants ARE these guys? (Note, of all the 2nd level buff spells, only the 2 Cat's Grace spells don't require a DF- I suspect a typo.)
And since they aren't allowed Holy Symbols, they not only won't be able to turn any undead, they can't use any of the feats that present alternative uses for turning.
I ask you, what is left?
Nope.
BoED p30
Absolutely no mention is made of the timing of the begging.
How? Specifically.
OK. Here are the consequences of using VoP RAW in that case.
Assuming a 1st lvl Human Wizard with Sacred Vow & VoP, plus any Exalted feat you like, as per the benefits of VoP...
The PC will be able to cast one 1st level spell...TOTAL...until he reaches his 3rd character level and can take Spell Mastery. That spell will be Read Magic, since he cannot own a spellbook from which to rememorize other spells and Read Magic is the only spell he can cast without one. He'll be having a lot of fun casting Read Magic over and over, then whacking someone in the head with his staff, and being stabbed by the opponents.
Do you honestly think that a Wizard who can only cast Read Magic will last 3 levels as an adventuring PC?
Assuming an Elf Wizard who takes Sacred Vow at 1st, then VoP at 3rd...
He will first cast off his spellbook and accumulated foci and magic items. He will then exhaust the spells he has memorized on his next adventure or so. Then he will only be able to cast Read Magic over and over again until he reaches 6th level and can take Spell Mastery. See above.
A PC Wizard taking VoP at ANY level (in a RAW VoP campaign) will fall into this trap. While he will be gaining Exalted feats as bonuses, once he takes VoP, he will be a powerless spellcaster until he earns his next bonus feat due to PC advancement.
A little more on this.
The VoP does not restrict you from carrying anything of value, nor does it keep you from carrying any money- just most of it. It demands that you minimize the value of what you carry, and through this, your life, as evidence of your devotion to a particular god. That blank spellbook pales in value next to a decent assortment of weapons. A VoP PC could carry a Heavy Crossbow and 20 Bolts at 52gp, a nice Morningstar at 8gp, and a dagger at 2gp (all simple weapons, thus permissible)- for a grand total of 62gp. (Note that the Vow doesn't limit the # of weapons, just their kind.)
At some point, the VoP Pc will need to reload his bolts, or at the very least, get some more food. His foodbag has only 1 day of food. Like anything else on his person, he'll have to pay, beg, or work to refill it.
(BoED p30-31, emphasis mine)
Note that the language used is "majority" not "all." The VoP PC is thus presumably allowed to keep enough money to feed himself for a day, assuming he is not carrying that much food (as is mentioned on BoED p48).
Like I said, the reason its defined the way it is so that PC's can't buy a 5gp spell component pouch and get a 300gp+ worth of spell components. Instead, you get a simple bag with the cheap stuff thrown in, and its up to the caster to obtain the more expensive components seperately.
If, for example, it included a divine focus (usually, a holy symbol), the caster would be getting a 6gp value for 5gp. What merchant would make THAT deal? He's already thrown it a bunch of spices, dirt, gravel, etc. that all those wierdo spellcasters need- why give away something he can actually SELL?
A literal reading of VoP would result in scenarios like:
Diety: You have taken 2 sacred vows to me, my son, including a Vow of Poverty, so I will grant you many abilities.
Ascetic: Thank you, my lord!
Diety: Oh, by the way, small caveat- you won't be able to turn undead, consecrate areas, raise the dead in any form, detect or protect from evil in any way...but you'll glow in the dark!
Ascetic: Ok...so what you're saying is for any of THAT stuff, I'll have to send supplicants to the corrupt bishop down the road who barely pays you lip service?
Diety: Yep.
Ascetic: Is it too late to change my mind about this vow?
Oh, and btw, VoP will bar the PC from using many of the spells from BoED (if using VoP RAW).
It will also make several of the Exalted Feats useless, so be careful and count out the number of feats you'd find useful before taking the Vow. VoP starts off by making Consecrate Spell Trigger and Purify Spell Trigger unavailable since a VoP PC can't use Spell Trigger devices. But on top of that, it bars others if you use VoP RAW. Familiars are not available (too expensive to summon), so scratch Celestial Familiar. You can't turn, so forget Exalted Turning. You won't be able to cast Align Weapon (DF required) so Sanctify Weapon is gone. And Words of Creation gets gutted- the Creation section is useless (most of those spells require DF), Exalted Power (usable only with Good spells, most of which require DF) and True Name (required spells have expensive components and require DF and the ability itself costs gp as well) abilities.
With that in mind, you'll have to ask yourself if a RAW VoP PC can still find enough useful Exalted feats as per the chart on BoEDp31 (which, BTW, does not include the 1st level bonus exalted feat mentioned on BoED p30). If you take the VoP at 1st level, you'll have to find 10 or 11 useful Exalted feats (depending on race) -and don't forget that some are mutually exclusive.
Particle_Man
Explorer
It might help to think of the "VoP guy" as someone who has their own, special, spell list. So paladins have different spells from clerics, and VoP clerics have different spells from non-VoP clerics. No one expects the paladin to resurrect anybody, and so it is not impossible that the VoP cleric would do different tasks than the non-VoP cleric would do. This might help with the cognitive dissonance you are feeling. VoP is restrictive. It also gives the character a ton of abilities. That is why it is a trade-off.
I would not expect wizards to take VoP until they are high enough level to have Spell Mastery under their belt.
As for why the FAQ backs me up on divine foci, look it up. It is a free download. I don't have the ability to cut and paste parts of a pdf. It basically says "Yep. The VoP character is not meant to have divine foci, but you could house rule one in if you want."
And I can piece together 11 exalted feats. They might not all be "the awesome !!!11!1!!" but it can be done. There are, for instance, more vows to take.
In any case, there is no rule saying the VoP has to be taken at 1st level. History talks about people having careers as soldiers/lords/etc., and retiring to become hermits/monks. This vow could follow that idea. This would solve the "Food!" problem of a pre-5th level VoP guy, as well as the "Scarcity" problem of feats.
I would not expect wizards to take VoP until they are high enough level to have Spell Mastery under their belt.
As for why the FAQ backs me up on divine foci, look it up. It is a free download. I don't have the ability to cut and paste parts of a pdf. It basically says "Yep. The VoP character is not meant to have divine foci, but you could house rule one in if you want."
And I can piece together 11 exalted feats. They might not all be "the awesome !!!11!1!!" but it can be done. There are, for instance, more vows to take.
In any case, there is no rule saying the VoP has to be taken at 1st level. History talks about people having careers as soldiers/lords/etc., and retiring to become hermits/monks. This vow could follow that idea. This would solve the "Food!" problem of a pre-5th level VoP guy, as well as the "Scarcity" problem of feats.
Particle_Man
Explorer
Dannyalcatraz said:
The fact that no mention of timing is made, actually favors my argument:
Here is my argument for why time = immediately when casting the spell. Expensive spell components are not on the specific list under the feat Vow of Poverty. Expensive spell components are not part of the Spell Component Pouch. Therefore the character cannot carry expensive spell components. They may use such, if they beg for them. Your interpretation would allow a character to beg for 12 days worth of food at one time, and carry it around "for later use", which would similarly violate the "one day limit" of how much food one is allowed to carry. There is a specific exception on p. 30 that allows one to use expensive spell components by begging for them (thus giving them access to spells they would otherwise be unable to cast), but no mention is made of carrying them around (the word "carry" does not appear on p. 30 in the relevant paragraph), therefore the rule under the feat about what you can carry still applies. The rule under the feat does not allow one to carry expensive spell components.
Bront said:
Well, no, actually ... "Pick one class. Taking levels in this class does not prevent you from taking monk levels ... If the selected class also has restricted advancement, such as the paladin class, taking monk levels does not prevent you from advancing in that class." (ECS pg. 57)
Rashak Mani
First Post
I'm currently playing a human VoP Monk of 16th lvl... its quite an amazing character... but its certainly now overpowerful. His ability to survive, high AC and great saves is certainly a bit over the top. Yet these things won't kill the bad ass monster.
All our PCs are a bit min maxed... or might I say optimised ? So the Monk compares equally to the other PCs... even if there are somethings the VoP gives that are otherwise incredible.
So as per rules the VoP is fine.... unless your world is magic deficient. If magic items are hard to come by then the Monk will outshine the others.
All our PCs are a bit min maxed... or might I say optimised ? So the Monk compares equally to the other PCs... even if there are somethings the VoP gives that are otherwise incredible.
So as per rules the VoP is fine.... unless your world is magic deficient. If magic items are hard to come by then the Monk will outshine the others.
Dannyalcatraz, you seem to be under the impression that every class must be a valid choice for a VOP character. I don't see why you would make that assumption. If VOP means you're going to lose large chunks of your class abilities (as with wizards or clerics), that simply means that a VoP probably isn't the correct choice for your class. It doesn't imply that the authors of VoP intended you to simply ignore that drawback. Don't play a VoP wizard. It's really simple. Some feats just aren't for some classes, even if they qualify for them.
Well... i guess VoP fits best for a Monk, as other fighter types need weapons to fight properly... Casters will get hampered by the feat i think. A level 20 Cleric could get so much stronger boosting herself (for the entire day) and with the use of... i dunno... 10000 gold...
