Is Vow of Poverty broken?

[Rystil Arden]

You still get some benefits from your share of the treasure. It's just not in the normal form.

If you did, that would break the vow of poverty.

And I say again, go check out the character optimization board if you actually have doubts about this. They work it all out for you. They would be happy to entertain your "easily...better stuff" claim.

I have no doubt that the WotC optimisers do something twinkish that will break the vow--or at least, you are the one making these claims of brokenness, so the burden of proof is on you to find a valid claim. I don't really feel like surfing the Wizards boards looking for this, but if you think it will strengthen your argument, be my guest if you would like to do so.

 

[Thanee]

I think VoP is balanced for a Monk, and becomes unbalanced when it's used with non-Monk classes.

It's particulary broken for wizards.


VoP requires (if balance is to be ensured), that the wealth levels are within the guidelines.

Then the vow is completely fine.

In campaigns with less wealth or without the opportunities to spend it, as well as in campaigns with more wealth, the VoP character will be either over- or underpowered.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Nor have I ever heard of a DM not allowing the spellbook.

But that's entering house rules territory, right?

Metamagic not good for Wizards? On what planet?!?

Earth?

There are very few metamagic feats, which are worthwhile for a wizard (half a dozen at most, if you include the sudden ones). Of course, the pretty broken rods are always good.

A VoP sorceror or wizard is overpowered...

Yeah, if you break or at least highly bend the rules, that might be...

If you follow them, a wizard is completely unplayable, and a sorcerer is definitely not bad, but far from overpowered, except in situations, where magic items are restricted, removed, or whatnot. That's where VoP is really, really good, of course.

In any case, the sorcerer is one of the classes, who do greatly benefit from the vow, since they don't really need fancy items, having the bases covered is good enough for them. Their biggest downside is, that they will have really bad saves, and that is not good for a sorcerer.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kelleris]

Well, I'm not at all fond of the entire concept of Exalted feats, but that's neither here nor there.

The thing that I intensely dislike about VoP is the type of bonus it grants you - the completely nonstandard exalted (or sacred? I may be misremembering) bonus. Which, unlike magical items, stacks with everything you care to cast on yourself or have someone else cast on you. With all the various buffing spells granting their full bonus on top of your pseudo-item bonuses, it can get pretty ridiculous. That's are the grounds I dislike the VoP sorcerer on. Change the feat's bonuses to enhancement, deflection, etc. (the standard magical item/spell bonuses) and it's balanced. I still don't like it, but I think it's reasonable.

And of course, you have to cleave pretty closely to the standard wealth guidelines, and that's another pain for the DM if s/he doesn't already do that...

EDIT - Actually, the VoP psion would probably be the worst of the bunch. But psion is questionably balanced to begin with...

 

[Rystil Arden]

The thing that I intensely dislike about VoP is the type of bonus it grants you - the completely nonstandard exalted (or sacred? I may be misremembering) bonus. Which, unlike magical items, stacks with everything you care to cast on yourself or have someone else cast on you. With all the various buffing spells granting their full bonus on top of your pseudo-item bonuses, it can get pretty ridiculous. That's are the grounds I dislike the VoP sorcerer on. Change the feat's bonuses to enhancement, deflection, etc. (the standard magical item/spell bonuses) and it's balanced. I still don't like it, but I think it's reasonable.

Take a look at the abilities again. Only one of the many abilities grants an Exalted bonus--the AC bonus ability. If you have a problem with that one, swap that one ability to an Armour Bonus and you'll be fine.

 

[Kelleris]

Hmm... Are you sure? I was remembering it differently (I don't own the book myself), but nobody had mentioned it yet and so I thought I would throw in what had annoyed me. Entirely possible I mis-somethinged it.

Ah well, still don't like the feat, and still think the psion would be the worst with it. From what I remember (obviously not as much as I would like), a monk/paladin would be okay as long as you're up for the extra hassle of making everyone's wealth line up.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hmm... Are you sure? I was remembering it differently (I don't own the book myself), but nobody had mentioned it yet.

I'm staring at it right now, don't worry

Ah well, still don't like the feat, and still think the psion would be the worst with it.

Nah, the Psion would find herself running into redundancies with those abilities and some of her best buffs that overlap but do not stack with the abilities. As a Psion, I would rather have a Torc of Power Preservation (@36,000 GP) than anything on the VoP list. Also, Psions need to buy a lot of feats to be fully effective, so they really feel the loss of the two feats.

 

[Kelleris]

Nah, the Psion would find herself running into redundancies with those abilities and some of her best buffs that overlap but do not stack with the abilities. As a Psion, I would rather have a Torc of Power Preservation (@36,000 GP) than anything on the VoP list. Also, Psions need to buy a lot of feats to be fully effective, so they really feel the loss of the two feats.

And how would magical items be any different? Unless you don't buy stat-boosting and other vanilla items for your psions, which would be... different from what I've seen.

Not like the character has to take those buffs. My experience may simply be different, but all of the psionic nastiness I've seen could probably spare a couple of feats and didn't rely all that much on whatever buffs it is you're talking about.

Losing the torc would hurt, but that's mainly because that item is borderline insane. There aren't really any other essential items that aren't covered by VoP. And the psion's scaling inertial armor is particularly effective in conjunction with the wiggy AC bonus from the feat - there's at least a clear non-redundancy with the psion's usual options.

 

[Rystil Arden]

And how would magical items be any different? Unless you don't buy stat-boosting and other vanilla items for your psions, which would be... different from what I've seen.

Not like the character has to take those buffs. My experience may simply be different, but all of the psionic nastiness I've seen could probably spare a couple of feats and didn't rely all that much on whatever buffs it is you're talking about.

Losing the torc would hurt, but that's mainly because that item is borderline insane. There aren't really any other essential items that aren't covered by VoP. And the psion's scaling inertial armor is particularly effective in conjunction with the wiggy AC bonus from the feat - there's at least a clear non-redundancy with the psion's usual options.

Admittedly the Exalted bonus to AC is nice for the Psion. If you changed that one thing to an Armour bonus, the utility of the feat would markedly decrease. As for Psions builds, the power builds usually include: Empower, Twin, Quicken, Psionic Meditation (to get focus back), Expanded Knowledge at least once (to get awesome powers on other disciplines' lists), Overchannel, plus usually some subset of Talented, Psicrystal Affinity, and Psicrystal Containment, as well as Boost Construct for the Construct lovers and Metamorphic Transfer if you have any transforming powers at all for some crazy Supernatural action.

 

[Thanee]

Psionatrix would be another item, plus all those 'wands', 'scrolls' and 'staffs', which have different names, but are essentially the same.

Also, all the stuff, that is nice for non-casters as well... invisibility, flying, etc.

Bye
Thanee