Is Vow of Poverty broken?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Far as I know, there is no 'atoning' when you lose the VoP abilities. Once lost, it can't be regained.

True. But since in the hypothetical, the VoP was "under the influence," I'd allow an atonement to work since the decision was due to an altered state of consciousness. And that only once if the intoxication was voluntary, I might add. A god might understand a mistake made while drunk once, but never twice.

If the intoxication was invloluntary, I'd be even more lenient.

As for a divine focus, where does it say you can't have a simple, mundane divine focus?

By a RAW interpretation of the Vow, a divine focus (DF) is not listed among the items a VoP PC may carry.

Some (including, apparently, someone who answered a FAQ) have interpreted the fact that a spell component pouch does not include a DF (or any other foci or more expensive components) to mean that a VoP PC cannot carry one of those either. I follow the approach that a DF is not in a standard spell component pouch (as listed in the PHB) because is something that needs to be aquired seperately since:

1) Even a wooden Divine Focus costs 20% of the value of a spell component pouch, so its extremely unlikely a merchant would just "throw one in" for free. That rationale goes for any component ≥ 1gp in value.

2) The most likely source of a Divine Focus is going to be the temples and clergy of the faith, not a standard merchant.

3) Divine Foci differ from faith to faith, so there's no way a merchant would include ALL of them in a pouch or would even have all of them in stock. Some would even be outlawed depending on politics or alignment- and note that good faiths would NOT be immune from this. Consider the RW conflict between Islam and the other "Religions of the Book" (Judaism & Christianity): while some Islamic countries have a high tolerance for the symbology of Judaism and Christianity, some others bar any non-Islamic symbology or religious books (even if they permit the practice of the religion, its trappings may be banned).

4) It is also perfectly possible for a PC to create a DF with the appropriate craft skills.

 

[Dimwhit]

What about, say, a Druid? They can't have a twig of mistletoe? That would break the VoP?

I think not letting a cleric have the Divine Focus because it's not considered part of spell component pouch is pretty extreme. I might agree that a 50gp silver cross might be a little much for a VoP, but a piece of wood carved into his god's holy symbol? I just can't see that (or most divine foci) not being allowed.

 

[3.5newbie]

Under the spirit of the rules as I would interpret them, the PC in question has a duty under his oath to make a good faith effort to rid himself of all wealth, and if that proves impossible for some bizarre reason he should avoid gaining any benefit from that wealth.

I have to disagree. A monk's tattos are essentially a class ability (assuming he's getting them from the PrC and nowhere else). They don't violate the vow any more the the still mind ability, for example, does. They produce spell-like effects, but rather than being analogous to magic items which produce spell-like effects, they are comparable to a spellcaster's ability to cast actual spells (which, like the tats, become available at certain levels and are usable a certain number of times per day.)

Wealth denotes something of value which can be exchanged. Magic items, cash, and property fit this description, and are covered. Spells, feats, and class abilities (including tats) do not, and are not.

 

[Legildur]

From the 3.5E FAQ:

How does Vow of Poverty apply to a tattooed monk
(Complete Warrior, page 82)? Are tattoos considered
material possessions or are they more like spell-like
abilities?

Despite their physical “presence” on the body, the tattoos
of a tattooed monk are class features, not possessions, and thus
not restricted by Vow of Poverty in any way (just as a rogue’s
evasion class feature or a barbarian’s fast movement class
feature).

 

[Rystil Arden]

From the 3.5E FAQ:

The poster earlier was not talking about the PrC abilities, I believe, but rather about magical tattoos that are purchased rather than received as a class feature.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The poster earlier was not talking about the PrC abilities, I believe, but rather about magical tattoos that are purchased rather than received as a class feature.

This I agree with 100%, and that obtaining such magical tattoos would violate the VoP stricture that an ascetic may not "use any magic item or any sort, though (he) can benefit from magic items used on your behalf..."

 

[Nyeshet]

He'd work to get high enough level to become a Forsaker. All of that combined meant he'd simply go adventuring, take his share of the loot, destroy it, and reap the rewards. (emphasis mine)

Therein lies the error. By taking and destroying the looted magic items he was effectively using them (to empower his class features), thus breaking his vow.

The Vow of Poverty does not mean that one is simply to live in poverty. They do not simply allow their comrads to take and use their share of the loot. It is expected that one will still recieve their fair share of the loot - but not use it for themselves or their allies. Instead they seek out the destitute, those truely in need, and use the loot to aid them. Perhaps they negotiate with a local lord, giving him the nice +2 Mithril Chain Shirt he found in exchange for the lord building (or sponcering the building of) a shelter for the homeless or a new church (of a religion known for helping the pour - not one that typically deals with the wealthy, etc). Perhaps he will use his share of the gold in the last adventure to help rebuild the homes destroyed in a recent fire.

He does not waste the items (such as tossing the gold down a well or into the sea) or use them for himself (either using the items directly or "giving" them to others in exchange for later favors). The Forsaker cannot destroy any magic item looted as such would come under one or both of the prior reasons. The only benefit from the destruction (unless the object was innately evil - such as a lich's phylactery, a sentient evil weapon, an artifact / relic of an evil deity, etc) is to the Forsaker. He is both gaining from the use of the magic items (in destroying them) and wasting wealth better spent toward the betterment of others less fortunate.

Your friend seemed so powerful because he was misinterpretting the rules and the DM didn't catch him at it. By the RAW what he was doing was not in the spirit of the vow. He should have lost it (or received a warning) after the first time he destroyed a (not innately and irrevocably evil) magic item. And considering that there are rules in the BoED for removing the taint (and subtype) of evil from such items, it is even less likely that he will ever come upon magic items he can destroy while remaining in the spirit of the vow.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...The only benefit from the destruction (unless the object was innately evil - such as a lich's phylactery, a sentient evil weapon, an artifact / relic of an evil deity, etc) is to the Forsaker. He is both gaining from the use of the magic items (in destroying them) and wasting wealth better spent toward the betterment of others less fortunate.

I agree with most of that...

If the Forsaker only destroys evil items, I'm OK with it. That he's benefiting from their destruction is not a problem- Ascetics are forbidden from using magic items, not from benefitting from them. They can, after all, drink a potion they have been given to heal their wounds, ride a companion's magical mount, etc.

Everything else, however, had best go to a fundraiser or something!

 

[Moon-Lancer]

By the raw, a wizard cannot gain much benefit from vop as it narfs his class abilities, however, I do not think it is too far fetched that a wizard couldn’t put two spells per a level in his spell book, but is bared from scribing the scrolls and writing spells in his spell book. Sure the book has a monetary value to another wizard, but using the basic book and only two spells a level doesn’t actually coast anything and may be appropriate. However, I think the wizard is screwed if this book gets stolen as getting a new book is expensive.

Remember the two spells a level and the initial book are class features rather then wealth spent at first level, so it should be ok.

I herd that from someone in a post far and away that one of the guys that wrote vop (not sure what part) said that its a major oversight not to allow a divine focus and is really just a mistake. I dont have any proof to backup this claim, but i thought i would mention it anyway.

 

[gabrion]

I just want to chime in to offer a few things on this topic.

I frequent the COB at wizards and it is usually accepted that a character well suited to the feat (soulknife, monk, druid, and others depending on how your DM treats this), is better off than a standard wealth character up till about level ten. After that things go downhill for a VoP character and by 15th level they fall far behind the party curve.

That said, I will second the point already brought up that druids are really the ideal class for this feat. The reasons are...

• The feat benefits low level character more than high level ones. Something that helps druids before 5th level is better in a certain way than stuff that helps them after that point (wild shape).
• On a similar note, feat selection for druids before 6th level is arguably less important than some other classes, so a human druid using both first level feats to get VoP won't be hurting the same way a monk or psion would.
• Wild Shape! Some of the best wild shape forms lose the benefits of equipment, so if unless you are going to be running around as a legendary ape all the time (which is a fine alternative as well), you won't really lose anything by using the VoP.
• No MAD. Unlike monks, druids only need to worry about one stat, so the fact that they can't spend money to boost multiple stats isn't really an issue.
• Spellcasting. Druids (for some crazy reason) are full casters, so they can overcome a lot of obstacles that non-casters need to use magic items to overcome. As such they aren't limited as much by the VoP restrictions.
• Exalted Feats. A lot of these feats are of great use to druids. Animal Friend, Intuitive Strike (if you leave your wild shape for some reason or it has a lower STR than your WIS), exalted animal companion, exalted wild shape, Nymph's Kiss (extra skill points are good for anyone), stigmata (if your DM doesn't give you extra HP for the CON change when you assume wild shape), and Touch of Golden Ice+Venomstike are all good options. If you don't like the available feats, you can always wait till you have enough money to buy a Tome of Clear Though +5 and then take VoP the next level.

To say a few quick words about a monk, I think the class doesn't do so well with VoP. It is nice for RPing an ascetic, but since monks are weak to begin with, careful feat and gear selection is crucial.

Anyway, I love druids almost as much as I love clerics. Nothing is more fun than a Venerable Jermlaine VoP druid!