Is Vow of Poverty broken?

[Dannyalcatraz]

So you're saying that, according to the RAW, a PoV Druid can't have a twig of Mistletoe?

Yep- that's been part of this whole thread.

See, a sprig of mistletoe or any other divine focus is not listed under the enumerated things a VoP PC may carry under the description of the feat...except POSSIBLY under the umbrella of "spell component pouch."

Some, including a person who wrote a FAQ entry, but NOT ME, believe that since such a component pouch does not include foci of any type, nor any material component above 1gp in value, that a VoP PC can NEVER put such foci or material components into such a pouch.

To which I replied:

I follow the approach that a DF is not in a standard spell component pouch (as listed in the PHB) because is something that needs to be aquired seperately since:

1) Even a wooden Divine Focus costs 20% of the value of a spell component pouch, so its extremely unlikely a merchant would just "throw one in" for free. That rationale goes for any component ≥ 1gp in value.

2) The most likely source of a Divine Focus is going to be the temples and clergy of the faith, not a standard merchant.

3) Divine Foci differ from faith to faith, so there's no way a merchant would include ALL of them in a pouch or would even have all of them in stock. Some would even be outlawed depending on politics or alignment- and note that good faiths would NOT be immune from this. Consider the RW conflict between Islam and the other "Religions of the Book" (Judaism & Christianity): while some Islamic countries have a high tolerance for the symbology of Judaism and Christianity, some others bar any non-Islamic symbology or religious books (even if they permit the practice of the religion, its trappings may be banned).

+++++

A Poverty Dude can weild a crossbow but not an axe? That makes no sense.

As for the axe vs crossbow thing, you do have a point.

Here, I disagree. Crossbows were THE missile weapon of choice for relatively untrained troops- they're fairly simple weapons to use. You can train somebody on the Crossbow in an amazingly short period of time (assuming you just need a certain rate of fire and aren't looking for accuracy).

Using an axe as an effective weapon (as opposed to as a tool) requires a LOT of training. Anyone can swing one, yes- and die in seconds against even a moderately trained opponent.

 

[Dimwhit]

Yep- that's been part of this whole thread.

See, a sprig of mistletoe or any other divine focus is not listed under the enumerated things a VoP PC may carry under the description of the feat...except POSSIBLY under the umbrella of "spell component pouch."

Well, mistletoe is a component for at least one spell. So the Druid would, in fact, have what is necessary in a mundane spell component pouch to have his divine focus. So, according to the RAW, a character can in fact have a divine focus. Depending on what that focus is.

I think some people are making the mistake that the list of items in the VoP is exhaustive. I don't think it is.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Here, I disagree. Crossbows were THE missile weapon of choice for relatively untrained troops- they're fairly simple weapons to use. You can train somebody on the Crossbow in an amazingly short period of time (assuming you just need a certain rate of fire and aren't looking for accuracy).

Using an axe as an effective weapon (as opposed to as a tool) requires a LOT of training. Anyone can swing one, yes- and die in seconds against even a moderately trained opponent.

but VoP has nothing to do with training. Its about belongings and the idea that you can have a weapon which is complex to produce if not to use, but not one which costs literally 1/10 as much is foolish. (specifly thinking of greatclub here)

 

[Dimwhit]

but VoP has nothing to do with training. Its about belongings and the idea that you can have a weapon which is complex to produce if not to use, but not one which costs literally 1/10 as much is foolish.

That's a good point. Many characters are proficient in a large number of weapons before they even take the vow, so it's not necessarily about training and ease of use. It should be more about simplicity and cost/value. That is why, I imagine, the quarterstaff is singeled out as a weapon of choice. Doesn't get much more simple and cheap.

 

[gabrion]

See, a sprig of mistletoe or any other divine focus is not listed under the enumerated things a VoP PC may carry under the description of the feat...except POSSIBLY under the umbrella of "spell component pouch."

Neither is dirt, but I bet the VoP character walking around barefoot collects quite a bit of it on his feet. Dirt is worth money (although very little) and it is not enumerated under the VoP feat. I hope you are consistent in saying that the dirty VoP monk has broken his vow.

The point here is that there are a ton of things not enumerated under VoP that could be considered to have value, but are simple parts of life. Following your logic, VoP is simply impossible for all. As someone said above, this approach to the feat indicates that maybe the mature line shouldn't be used in your games.

 

[lukelightning]

I'm not debating the simple-martial weapon proficiency categories; I just think it is counter to the spirit of the VoP that you can use a crossbow (one of the most expensive weapons) because it is a "simple" while you can't use a cheap old axe. Or nunchuks. You can use a heavy mace, but not a hammer? Is a mace somehow less "worldly goods" than a hammer?

Here, I disagree. Crossbows were THE missile weapon of choice for relatively untrained troops- they're fairly simple weapons to use. You can train somebody on the Crossbow in an amazingly short period of time (assuming you just need a certain rate of fire and aren't looking for accuracy).

Using an axe as an effective weapon (as opposed to as a tool) requires a LOT of training. Anyone can swing one, yes- and die in seconds against even a moderately trained opponent.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, mistletoe is a component for at least one spell. So the Druid would, in fact, have what is necessary in a mundane spell component pouch to have his divine focus. So, according to the RAW, a character can in fact have a divine focus. Depending on what that focus is.

As some argue, by RAW, he cannot, because the basic spell component pouch doesn't contain any foci at all, including divine foci.

Unless you are saying that a sprig of mistletoe is a non-divine focus spell component for at least one Druid spell...

I think some people are making the mistake that the list of items in the VoP is exhaustive. I don't think it is.

I agree 100%

The point here is that there are a ton of things not enumerated under VoP that could be considered to have value, but are simple parts of life. Following your logic, VoP is simply impossible for all. As someone said above, this approach to the feat indicates that maybe the mature line shouldn't be used in your games.

Whoa! Whoa! Whoaaaaa! I'm not in the pro-RAW VoP camp! In fact, I'm one of the most ardent posters AGAINST using VoP RAW.

I feel that VoP RAW does not model what it seems to be trying to model- that is, an ascetic holy man. Why? Because if it is interpreted in such a way that DF's are disallowed, Clerics and Paladins (presumably the most holy of a deity's followers) find their basic holy powers annihilated, and become unable to perform many of the typical duties for such a personage.

Sir Reginald, A fallen Paladin, comes to Brother Lumen...

Sir R: "Oh most holy Brother Lumen, I have violated my vow to our god, and I must set things aright in order to resume my crusade against evil! Can you purify me, and restore me to my status?"

Br. Lumen, Regular Cleric: (casting Atonement) "Sir Reginald, arise and sin no more- continue to do thy good works in the name of the Shining One!"

Br. Lumen, Exalted VoP Cleric: (casting Slay Living) "Sir Reginald, you have failed to keep thy vow sacrosanct...would that I could purify thy soul for you have been a mighty and righteous blade in the divine hands of the Shining One. But as one of the most holy chosen of our shared faith, I have no choice but remove the ill-formed sketch of your personage from the beauteous and perfect painting of the gods! DIE, VILE SINNER!"

...simply because Atonement requires a divine focus, and Slay Living does not.

I'm not debating the simple-martial weapon proficiency categories

Nor am I, not really, nor am I really concerned about the cost. I'm just saying that a VoP PC is to be more interested in things divine than in things martial, so they would gravitate to weapons that would require less training. Using a Crossbow effectively requires about the same amount of training as a sling, despite its cost. In contrast, an Axe requires a lot of training to use with any skill as a weapon.

 

[Saeviomagy]

And if a regular priest can Turn Undead, why would a deity strip this power from those he most favors? Is he trying to get his saints killed?

See, I think this is where you're making your mistake. Saints get the 'saint' template. People who are willing to give up everything for their god take vow of poverty

"You are my blessed one, Father Ted...but you'd better run from those skeletons!"

Father Ted could always break his vow, grab a holy symbol and turn the skeletons. The ability to do so is already granted to him as one of his favoured without needing the vow. This goes for every one of your other examples. If the character is willing to break his vow, his powers come back. He also gets the nifty ability to accumulate wealth, etc. The vow is supposed to be difficult. It just happens to be quite easy on a monk.

 

[Dimwhit]

Unless you are saying that a sprig of mistletoe is a non-divine focus spell component for at least one Druid spell...

Yep, that's what I'm saying. I'm about 90% sure that there's at least one Druid spell where mistletoe is the component. Don't remember what it is, though. (And, to be honest, I don't even know if it was 3.0 or 3.5.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

See, I think this is where you're making your mistake. Saints get the 'saint' template. People who are willing to give up everything for their god take vow of poverty

Fair enough...but the Saint template models ONLY someone like a Jean D'arc. The majority of saints and holy personages were not warriors in the martial sense.

Thus, my point from the real world remains- used RAW, VoP does not model what it is supposed to model.

There is not a single saint or holy personage I can name who 1) took a vow of poverty AND 2) lost power.

Examples:

Both Padre Pio and Saint Francis of Assisi took a vow of poverty. Both are universally depicted wearing a cross. Both remained members of the clergy and could and were expected to perform ALL the duties of a priest, including hearing confessions (the real world source from which Atonement was modeled). Both were allowed to own a book of prayers.

Siddartha Gautama (Buddha) took a vow of poverty. Then he founded a religion. Presumably, despite his vow of poverty, he was not less powerful than those who followed him.

Mahatma Ghandi took a vow of poverty. He was a fully practicing member of his faith.