D&D 5E Is WotC ever going to release something high level? Even as UA test material?

[jasper]

..You don't like it? Tough crap. You want to complain on EN World about it? That's fine, go nuts. You don't want anyone to point out how fruitless and ridiculous your complaints are? Tough crap.
... And we all get what we want!

Pecan, goober, chestnut, walnut, brazil nut, cashew, hex, almond, square, breadnut, recess, hazelnut, palm, sunflower, hickory, jack, pistachio , grape nuts, pine, and uncle bob.

 

[S'mon]

Have you? Because I think the core books have all that's needed to go to level 20.

They do, but the monsters are a bit skimpy. Tome of Beasts has tons of good stuff for high level play, though. Flicking through it to find stuff worthy of 18th level PCs works very well IME.

Or just use this awesome NPC charbuilder and crank it up to 30 hd (d12 or d20)...
http://rpgtinker.com/ I made a very nice 20d12 hd barbarian pirate warlord with it the other day,
only took a couple minutes. Here's a 30d20 Holy Champion:

The Translucent Seastar : Holy Champion
Female Human, any alignment
Armor Class: 18 (Full Plate Armor)
Hit Points: 405 (30d20 +90)
Speed: 30ft (9m / 6 sqr)
Proficiency: +7
STR
21 (+5)
DEX
11 (+0)
CON
17 (+3)
INT
13 (+1)
WIS
15 (+2)
CHA
15 (+2)
Skills: Religion +8 Athletics +12 Persuasion +9 History +8
Saving Throws: Strength +12 Constitution +10
Challenge: 21 (33000 XP)
Racial Features

Ability Modifiers: +1 to all
Languages: speaks Common and one extra.
Actions

Multiattack. The Holy Champion makes four weapon melee attacks or four ranged attacks.
Greatsword. Melee Weapon Attack +12 to hit, reach 5 ft, one target. Hit: 33 (8d6 +5 ) slashing damage.
Properties: Heavy, Two-handed,

Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack +7 to hit, range 150/600, one target. Hit: 18 (4d8 +0 ) piercing damage.
Properties: Ammunition: range 150/600, Heavy, Two-handed

She won't challenge a level 20 PC group on her own unless you made her Legendary, but as part of a small group of NPC enemies these can work very well IME.

 

[Prism]

Our high level converted campaign is going very well at 20th level using 5e rules. Everything is there to support it. Just not the pre written adventures, but who wants those at that level. For us almost everything is player driven at these levels.

Once you thrown out encounter guidelines then you can fight arch devils, demon lords, demi-liches (as an example). Oh, and Tome of Beasts is very useful too.

 

[CapnZapp]

you have no excuses private Zapp. you said. What happened to the idea that if a game advertises twenty levels, we should actually COMPLAIN if said game doesn't actually support all twenty levels...?
.......
I say, pay up because those two recent adventures support high level play. Or are you just griping because WOTC can not read your Joey brain. Psychically know your players builds and then produce an adventure which will only support your players only.
So Private Zapp the game IS being supported. Just not in your flavor. You know, you could write your own 3rd party adventures in the time you spend gripping here. And you will make thousands and thousands of dollars because you be the only one putting out great high level adventures.

I can't even understand if you're insulting me and if I should report your post.

Is Joey brain and "private Zapp" and "pay up" Australian slang or what?

Never mind. If you believe two AL adventures is sufficient for me to agree 5E offers sufficient support for high-level play, you are sorely mistaken.

 

[CapnZapp]

So, I'm curious--what would your ideal high-level adventure look like, and which features of it are lacking in the AL scenarios and/or the typical DMsG offering?

The final chapter of the AL adventure Assault on Maerimydra is a good high-level offering.

So more of that, in print. In official hardback modules. If WotC doesn't think an adventure campaign "from zero to hero" will sell, fair enough, they can release a level 15-20 module as a testbed.

This module should then contain significant rules support that the base PHB game lacks.

Things you need at high level. First and foremost, a significant upgrade to the basic monster building blocks. Since it's no longer low levels, stop assuming DMs are newbies that can't handle monsters with tricks up their sleeves. Give any monster intended to be used as a solo or soloish creature more hit points and more attacks (more damage output). Ensure battlefield mobility to withstand trivial kiting tactics. Also provide each monster with at least one trick up their sleeve so they stand a chance against regular high-level PC powers. Be more generous with skill and save proficiencies.

Experiment more by giving monsters similar abilities to classed adventurers. Take a simple thing like Reckless Attack and damage resistance from Rage - its such a devastatingly powerful ability you feel all weird when you realize only the PC hero gets it, but no NPCs. So any Icewind Dale Barbarian you meet is essentially a wuss, regardless of level? And Action Surge? It's so fundamental to the Fighter concept that any trained "champion" fighter needs to have it, or you feel like playing the game on carebear setting for being the special snowflake that gets it.

Since high-level heroes meet epic-level foes, we need to expand the current magic rules framework. having a level 20 or level 25 Wizard be unable to concentrate on more than one spell at a time breaks my suspension of belief, to be frank. Perhaps add way for "archmages" to utilize metamagic. The combat system and magic combat in particular works alright when you add numbers, but I absolutely require D&D to support the notion that a single Epic Archmage is more dangerous than three CR 17 Mages, and currently there is no way for the Epic Archmage to compete with three level 9 spells cast in the same round.

Reconsider many of the current class features from early teens up to 19. They are mostly unimpressive at that level. That doesn't mean they're useless, only that they should have been handed out at levels 6-10. Some capstone abilities are decidedly meh. The entire list of lvl 15-20 class features needs to be revised.

Fix saving throws. At high level the system breaks down, or to be more specific: the system can't handle DCs above 20, since it produces characters with weak saves around +0, and for them DC 21+ is an automatic failure. This is decidedly unheroic and unfun and un-D&D. Perhaps simplest patch is to use proficiency bonus as a floor() value, that is your saving throw can never have a bonus lower than your proficiency bonus. Use proficiency whenever your actual saving throw bonus is lower.

You asked, so here are five things that would make high level play a much more solid and enjoyable experience

 

[S'mon]

Since high-level heroes meet epic-level foes, we need to expand the current magic rules framework. having a level 20 or level 25 Wizard be unable to concentrate on more than one spell at a time breaks my suspension of belief, to be frank. Perhaps add way for "archmages" to utilize metamagic. The combat system and magic combat in particular works alright when you add numbers, but I absolutely require D&D to support the notion that a single Epic Archmage is more dangerous than three CR 17 Mages, and currently there is no way for the Epic Archmage to compete with three level 9 spells cast in the same round.

I guess this would be ok for a Legendary Solo BBEG ability, but I definitely don't want PCs accessing it. I was statting up Runelord Karzoug in 5e a while back as a ca CR 24 BBEG for facing 5-6 level 20 PCs (supported by various CR 12-18 allies), and I don't recall lack of multiple Concentration being an issue, at least the way he's presented in the adventure. The main requirements to make him effective seemed to be Legendary Resistance & Actions (including casting as an LA), Magic Resistance, a good AC, and tons of hit points. The rules supported all that OK, though he came out a lot tougher than some similarly CR'd critters in the MM.

 

[robus]

Sly Flourish's guideline is the best I've seen for high level 5e - use # of monsters equal to # of PCs, with CR = 1/3 PC level for an easy fight up to CR = 2/3 level for a nasty Spike encounter.
For one monster to 2 PCs, CR=Level gives a tough fight. For solo monster vs 4 PCs CR = 1.5 level
gives a tough fight, eg 4 level 20 PCs vs CR 30 Tarrasque (assuming appropriate environment).

Thanks - stealing that for my high-level (15-20) OotA remix!

 

[Zardnaar]

Still no answer as to why some forumists let WotC get away with poor to non-existent support for the levels they advertise the game as having.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Can you link to one of these ads?

Why don't you design a high level adventure and get it printed? Or put it on the DMGuild and see how well it sells? I suspect I know the answer already and that is the reason why they are rare.

OD&D was a level 1-10 game, D&D has never really been designed for high level play even 4E flubbed it just in a different way.

 

[Zardnaar]

Sixth if you include Basic.
Well... seventh if you include OD&D...

WoTC has only done 3 though the current design group 2.

Ironically in the lead up to 5E when I was designing my own D&D/playing retroclones I think I did solve the problem of high level play. I revised my homebrew once 5E landed. Here is what you need to doIMHO to make D&D work at higher levels.

1. Build you D&D around the only D&D to halfway function well at higher levels. That is BECMI.

2. Use modern mechanics, d20's, ascending ACs probably 5E skill and proficiency system.

3. Don't use feats or if you do have them low powered. In 5E terms alert and mobility are the best ones.

4. Use AD&D concepts for the monsters picking up where 2E left off. This means a Dragon for example is similar to 5E ones but has AD&D breath weapons, spellcasting a'la 3.5, and AD&D magic resistance.

5. Use gritty hp recovery per day, the 5E one doesn't cut it even the variant rules. By gritty I mean 1d3 hit points per day or perhaps 5E HD system but you only get a single HD back per day.

6. Dump bonus action and short rest mechanics.

7. Use the BECMI/C&C/ACKs atributes (1-5 +1, 16-17 +2, 18+3)

You need a lower powered game with more resilient monsters with a less generous HP recovery.

I also would argue that you use the old xp system as well so Rogues for example level up faster, and I would also overhaul the saves. ZYou would also have to tone down the gonzo levels of daamge 5E monsters deal.

Some example

Kobold CR 1/8
Small Humanoid LE
Initiative +2 Senses Perception -1 darkvision 60'
HD 1d6-1 Hp 3
AC 12
Abilities Str 8 Dex 14 Con 9 Int 9 Wis 8 Cha 10
Saves Fortitude +1, Reflex +4 Will +1
Speed 30'
Attack Melee +4 Dagger Dmg 1d4-1 or
Ranged +4 Sling Dmg 1d4
SQ: Shifty, Trap Sense The Kobold gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against traps.
Alignment Lawful Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Stealth+4, Thievery +4
Equipment 3 javelins
Traits
Shifty (bonus action ) The Kobold moves 5’ and doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. .
Light Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the kobold has disadvantage on attack rolls.

Ogre CR 1

Large Giant
Initiative -1 Senses darkvision 60'
HD 4d10+8 hp 38
AC 12
Saves: Fortitude +6 Reflex +2 Will +-1
Speed 40'
Alignment CE Languages Giant
Skills Perception +3 Stealth +10,
Str 18 Dex 8 Con 18 Int 5 Wis 7 Cha 7
Skills: Athletics +6
Equipment: hide armor, club, 3 javelins
Actions
Attack: Melee +6 Dmg 2d8+4 (club)) or
+6 ranged damage 2d8+4 (javelin)

Another easier option would be something like revising C&C and adding in things from 5E you like and fixing some of the odd things in that system.

 

[Mistwell]

They do, but the monsters are a bit skimpy. Tome of Beasts has tons of good stuff for high level play, though. Flicking through it to find stuff worthy of 18th level PCs works very well IME.

I entirely agree. Good book. And I do want more higher level monsters from WOTC. But I think there's enough to get to level 20 despite wanting more.