D&D 5E Is WotC ever going to release something high level? Even as UA test material?

[CapnZapp]

I guess this would be ok for a Legendary Solo BBEG ability, but I definitely don't want PCs accessing it. I was statting up Runelord Karzoug in 5e a while back as a ca CR 24 BBEG for facing 5-6 level 20 PCs (supported by various CR 12-18 allies), and I don't recall lack of multiple Concentration being an issue, at least the way he's presented in the adventure. The main requirements to make him effective seemed to be Legendary Resistance & Actions (including casting as an LA), Magic Resistance, a good AC, and tons of hit points. The rules supported all that OK, though he came out a lot tougher than some similarly CR'd critters in the MM.

I'm talking about things like the Archmage NPC stat block. This works only for a quick NPC that way outlevels the heroes or some run of the mill bog-standard high-level mage, not as something that allows people like Gromph or Vizeran to showcase anything resembling epic power.

I don't want a humanoid Archmage to be turned to a combat monster a la 4e Solos; I just need high-level play to offer mechanisms that allow NPCs to outshine even high-level PC Wizards to show them there's more power to be had (even if only theoretically, as you say).

 

[S'mon]

I'm talking about things like the Archmage NPC stat block. This works only for a quick NPC that way outlevels the heroes or some run of the mill bog-standard high-level mage, not as something that allows people like Gromph or Vizeran to showcase anything resembling epic power.

Oh yeah, the 5e CR12 Archmage is an easy encounter for 12th level PCs, (moderately) tough for 8th level PCs. Definitely not level 20 PC-fighting material. Even the MM Lich seems very wimpy.

 

[jasper]

... Why don't you design a high level adventure and get it printed? Or put it on the DMGuild and see how well it sells? I suspect I know the answer already and that is the reason why they are rare.

....

And the glove and challenge has been given to Captzapp. Can CaptZapp write a high level module which will sell more than 1,000 copies on dmguild?
Hey I toss in $5 sight unseen. $7.50 if he includes a nice dragon encounter and ghost barmaid.

 

[Raith5]

I didn't have that experience, EL=PL+0 fights were pretty routine but EL=PL+4 fights were definitely nasty at Heroic Tier. But there was a big problem with early 4e in that the MM monsters mostly did far too little damage. This was fixed to "average damage = Level+8" from MM3 onwards.

I didnt have that experience either in 4e. We had a couple of Encounters 6 or more levels fights at higher than our level that were just crazy (but yes, the combats took forever in 4e especially at epic). The point is that in 4e it worked and it could work in 5e. You just have to be willing to bypass the EL system and really push the system. I hope we give it a go when we get to higher levels.

 

[Mephista]

You asked, so here are five things that would make high level play a much more solid and enjoyable experience

Hmm... so, some responces.

Asking for high level monsters is pretty valid. I disagree with some things, but that is pretty valid. Especially since the Moon Druid is so dependant upon having Beast or Elemental monsters to copy.

I already use PC classed antagonists against PCs. I don't know why some people are so, so insistant that NPCs can't use the same mechanics as PCs. And I don't need them as stat blocks in a book to do it. Honestly, even at low levels I'm tweaking things because they don't fit my game. You just said "stop assuming DMs are newbies," but I feel like that's exactly the heart of your argument. Assume the GMs are newbies that cant' tweak monsters to suit their games. Need more mobility? Give them the mobility feat, and done. Boom. These are meant to be guidelines, not hard rules.

I think saving throws are fine, as is. That's how magic works for the players - figure out a weak save and target it. I have absolutely no problem with the reverse. D&D is a team game where people cooperate together. Its only natural that some members have weak points that other PCs cover for. The team is heroic, not the individuals. I don't think this is a case of saving throws being bad as having save-or-suck spells in the first place.

Redo high levels? Honestly, we need entire classes redone, not just high levels. This is a problem of just being a new edition. Capstone abilities aren't designed to be impressive. That's a Pathfinder conceit. No, its the abilities at 17//18 that are supposed to be the "captstone" big bumps in power, following the Tier design.

For the most part, I can understand the monster issue, but the rest? I'm not seeing it. Sorry. I think they work great as is. We'll just have to disagree based on playstyle.

 

[Greg Benage]

I've played one campaign from 1st to 18th level and the campaign I'm currently playing in is at 16th level. I've only DMed one campaign so far and it's at 19th level. I'd be up for more high-CR monsters but I don't think high-level published adventures would be all that helpful IME. The capabilities of different parties start to diverge at low level; by 3rd and 4th Tier, they're wildly divergent. High-level PCs should also (IMO) start driving events. All of this means that the DM is really going to have to do the work. A published adventure would have to be sufficiently customized that I'm not sure how much value it would offer.

So the target audience would be smaller (since a lot of groups aren't playing at high level) and the takers within that target audience would be fewer. That probably means such products are best suited for DM's Guild.

I've played a lot at high levels, I'm a fan of how 5e plays at high levels, but I don't expect much support for it from Wizards. Monsters are always welcome.

 

[Jester David]

Still no answer as to why some forumists let WotC get away with poor to non-existent support for the levels they advertise the game as having.

It's not good.

But it's better than we got for D&D Essentials (only 5 non-heroic tier monsters... all dragons).
And better than what they did during 3e and 4e, where the designed some epic stuff before anyone had really reached or played at those levels, so it was uncertain how powerful to make the content. And better than Pathfinder, with Mythic, which looked great on paper but just let players break the game.

4e is already in a better place than 4e as it has a more robust OGL. Tomb of Beast alone helps make high levels playable.

I wouldn't mind a high level adventure. One that goes from 10+. Or even 5 to 15. But it's not like any other RPG publisher has even stepped up to do that. Even the third parties aren't touching that.
(Which does make for a good untapped niche for authors)

Why don't you design a high level adventure and get it printed? Or put it on the DMGuild and see how well it sells? I suspect I know the answer already and that is the reason why they are rare.

OD&D was a level 1-10 game, D&D has never really been designed for high level play even 4E flubbed it just in a different way.

And the glove and challenge has been given to Captzapp. Can CaptZapp write a high level module which will sell more than 1,000 copies on dmguild?
Hey I toss in $5 sight unseen. $7.50 if he includes a nice dragon encounter and ghost barmaid.

Hell, I'll buy it. As long as it's reasonably priced (or just slightly unreasonably priced) I pledge to buy it.

 

[jayoungr]

I would like a high level adventure in the vein of Scales of War.

This may interest you, if you haven't already seen it:

https://5escalesofwar.wordpress.com/

They've gotten as far as Grasp of the Mantled Citadel.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

This may interest you, if you haven't already seen it:

https://5escalesofwar.wordpress.com/

They've gotten as far as Grasp of the Mantled Citadel.

Thank you. Just scanned it so far, but I am impressed. I like the offensive and defensive CR breakdown.

 

[SkidAce]

The game supports going to all twenty levels. Not every individual adventure is designed for it, but you have all the tools to play to level 20, and a bit beyond with the stuff in the DMG. You just don't have premade plot for it. You have the mechanics, magical items, monsters and even some setting details (high level play tends to include planar travel and godly beings). That's support. There's just not an adventure for it.

And this isn't being apologetic. This is being realistic. There's not enough of a market demand for pre-made adventures for high level PCs, and that's backed by both research and previous sales patterns.

Quoted for truth.