Is WotC still the industry LEADER?

[Mark]

Only time will tell, it's still way to early.

Leading is something that is apparent and does not require a retrospective view to appreciate.

 

[Scribble]

Leading is something that is apparent and does not require a retrospective view to appreciate.

Sure- but the descisions the leader makes are sometimes best viewed retrospectively.

 

[mlund]

Sure- but the descisions the leader makes are sometimes best viewed retrospectively.

Yup. The first lemming off the cliff is still a leader. I guess that makes his corpse "special," but I wouldn't trade places with him.

- Marty Lund

 

[Harlekin]

Yes, but these tactics almost always anger fans and customers. Remember when Metallica made a big stink about napster? Know lars is hated even by people that continue to purchase metallica albums. With gaming, I am sure a certain percentage of people will pirate from PDFs. But there are always those kinds of people out there, and even without PDFs they can download them off of websites. Personally this reminds a lot of the 90s when TSR was going after fans. And it smelled like desperationg back then. I don't think Wizards is desperate. 4E seems to be doing pretty well. If they weren't selling many copies, I could understand the move. But you must admit, it unleashed a fury of gamer wrath all over the web. A few companies even announced their intent to continue with PDF sales; clearly trying to earn better will with their customers than wizards. My guess is there will always be pirates in one form or another. This move however, is akin to punishing the whole class because someone stole the teacher's chalk. Its insulting to those of us who purchase PDFs and use them legitimately.

But I believe this is a move that comes from Hasbro and not Wizards.

I think that a lot of the anger is just a result of the poisoned atmosphere in the D&D community that the ongoing edition wars have produced. EN world is not a rational place these days.

And, yet again, wizards bungled the PR.

However, I agree that removing all pdfs from distribution for an extended period of time would be punishing all customers for the sins of a few. That said, presently we do not know if that is going to happen. Wizard claims that they will try to make their pdfs available again.

I did not have the impression that most of the anger here is due to wizards suing pirates. People may think that there is no point to this course of action, but I always had the impression that most gamers did not look kindly on theft of intellectual property.

In this context, I am baffled by one point: what purpose would watermarking pdfs serve, if pirates were not sued?

 

[Mark]

Sure- but the descisions the leader makes are sometimes best viewed retrospectively.

One would have to believe that a person or company and their decisions were beyond comprehension to the potential followers for that to be true, and I do not believe that in this case.

 

[Scribble]

Yup. The first lemming off the cliff is still a leader. I guess that makes his corpse "special," but I wouldn't trade places with him.

- Marty Lund

Sure, that just makes them a poor leader. (Unless somehow lemming heaven turns out to be the most amazing place in the history of everness.)

One would have to believe that a person or company and their decisions were beyond comprehension to the potential followers for that to be true, and I do not believe that in this case.

No, one could just understand that they might not always have all the information, or that in some cases one's own personal opinion on how things should be done might not be the best action.

 

[ProfessorPain]

I think that a lot of the anger is just a result of the poisoned atmosphere in the D&D community that the ongoing edition wars have produced. EN world is not a rational place these days.

I agee, edition wars are probably contributing. HOwever, this seems like a different kind of anger. Edition war anger eventually goes away, once people settle on their respective editions. This is the kind of anger TSR generated in the 90s with its suits. It isn't that TSR had no right to protect its copy righted material; but again gamers are a community. And a small one at that. It only takes a little aggressive action on the part of a company to get people upset.

However, I agree that removing all pdfs from distribution for an extended period of time would be punishing all customers for the sins of a few. That said, presently we do not know if that is going to happen. Wizard claims that they will try to make their pdfs available again.

Fair enough, but the damage is already done. For whatever reason, people took the announcement personally.

I did not have the impression that most of the anger here is due to wizards suing pirates. People may think that there is no point to this course of action, but I always had the impression that most gamers did not look kindly on theft of intellectual property.

Honestly I am going to guess that gamers are about 50/50 on this issue. Whether it is right or wrong, there is a strong independant spirit among many gamers, like niche music fans. Some of us are opposed to piracy, some of us believe it helps the hobby. Everyone agrees it is illegal. But not everyone agrees on whether it is right or wrong. Just like with boot leg movies. I like martial arts flicks, and lots of wushu fans are into boot leg copies of films purchased in china town. Just to be clear, I don't believe in purchasing boot leg copies, but either way, there is an entire culture around it and it is a good chunk of martial arts fans out there. If a company specializing in distributing these kinds of films in the US made an example out of a few purchasers or sellers, it is easy to imagine the negative reaction that might generate. And I think that is kind of playing out here. I am not saying either side is right or wrong. But maybe long term, it would have been better for wizards to err on the side of goodwill. My guess is this freaked a lot of people out, because they remember the TSR thing a decade ago.

In this context, I am baffled by one point: what purpose would watermarking pdfs serve, if pirates were not sued?

It might deter people, like me, who are terrified of lawsuits. They just need to be careful. It really can generat ill will. I remember the music companies started going after students in colleges a couple of years ago, basically the only people who really buy records anyways, and they ended up making their primary customers angry. Not saying protecting their intellectual property can't be done. Its just a very delicate walk. Especially when all it takes is three people starting threads like these to breed more anger.

 

[Mark]

No, one could just understand that they might not always have all the information, or that in some cases one's own personal opinion on how things should be done might not be the best action.

That would have to be a follower with a good deal of faith. I do not believe that should be required in the gaming industry. Since what was hundreds of followers during OGL days has dwindled to, perhaps, dozens, I am guessing a lot of folks lack that kind of faith these days.

 

[Harlekin]

I agee, edition wars are probably contributing. HOwever, this seems like a different kind of anger. Edition war anger eventually goes away, once people settle on their respective editions. This is the kind of anger TSR generated in the 90s with its suits. It isn't that TSR had no right to protect its copy righted material; but again gamers are a community. And a small one at that. It only takes a little aggressive action on the part of a company to get people upset.

They haven't so far. And the fact that some posters have a financial interest in one or the other edition succeeding makes it unlikely that they will, barring a change in moderator strategy.

Fair enough, but the damage is already done. For whatever reason, people took the announcement personally.

As I said, it was a terrible PR. At the very least they should have had a statement ready. I think their legal strategy affected much of what they were doing. However, there is also a host of people just waiting to take offense at whatever the big company (be it Starbucks, Microsoft or Wotc) is doing. And a lot of ppl still feel personally insulted by 4th.

Honestly I am going to guess that gamers are about 50/50 on this issue. Whether it is right or wrong, there is a strong independant spirit among many gamers, like niche music fans. Some of us are opposed to piracy, some of us believe it helps the hobby. Everyone agrees it is illegal. But not everyone agrees on whether it is right or wrong. Just like with boot leg movies. I like martial arts flicks, and lots of wushu fans are into boot leg copies of films purchased in china town. Just to be clear, I don't believe in purchasing boot leg copies, but either way, there is an entire culture around it and it is a good chunk of martial arts fans out there. If a company specializing in distributing these kinds of films in the US made an example out of a few purchasers or sellers, it is easy to imagine the negative reaction that might generate. And I think that is kind of playing out here. I am not saying either side is right or wrong. But maybe long term, it would have been better for wizards to err on the side of goodwill. My guess is this freaked a lot of people out, because they remember the TSR thing a decade ago.



It might deter people, like me, who are terrified of lawsuits. They just need to be careful. It really can generat ill will. I remember the music companies started going after students in colleges a couple of years ago, basically the only people who really buy records anyways, and they ended up making their primary customers angry. Not saying protecting their intellectual property can't be done. Its just a very delicate walk. Especially when all it takes is three people starting threads like these to breed more anger.

I'm not sure the analogy with the music industry is quite correct. We interact with quite a few of the artists creating gaming books every day. So we actually know who we damage. Moreover, if Lars Ulrich wines that he should have made even more money of The Black Album, then I can only shake my head. On the other hand, if Ari says that he would like to be able to afford good health insurance (fictional), I can sympathize.

 

[ProfessorPain]

They haven't so far. And the fact that some posters have a financial interest in one or the other edition succeeding makes it unlikely that they will, barring a change in moderator strategy.

Again, I think the edition war thing is blending with this issue; but I do believe the edition wars are a kind of predictable neccesity any time a big game company shifts to a new edition. I know there is still emotion on this issue. I just sense it is diminishing.

As I said, it was a terrible PR. At the very least they should have had a statement ready. I think their legal strategy affected much of what they were doing. However, there is also a host of people just waiting to take offense at whatever the big company (be it Starbucks, Microsoft or Wotc) is doing. And a lot of ppl still feel personally insulted by 4th.

I agree it was bad pr. But I also think this move was probably going to anger lots of gamers either way. Both for the reasons you site (there are people just waiting for the big companies to make a mistake) and because I think gamers take these things much more personally than starbucks' customers, or Wendy's Customers (though that "Premium" Fish sandwich got me riled up).

I'm not sure the analogy with the music industry is quite correct. We interact with quite a few of the artists creating gaming books every day. So we actually know who we damage. Moreover, if Lars Ulrich wines that he should have made even more money of The Black Album, then I can only shake my head. On the other hand, if Ari says that he would like to be able to afford good health insurance (fictional), I can sympathize.

But I think with a company as big as Wizards (at least in terms of RPGs), people seperate the company as a collective from the artists and writers as individuals. I have to admit though, getting a personal post from people at wizards on boards like this, has to have a moderating influence on peoples' reactions.