Issue with Bards that cast spells

[SALADIN THE JUST]

I have a conceptual problem with a Bard-type class that employs spells as part of his class abilities. While there are mythical stories that speak of individuals who were able to invoke powers and energies merely by employing certain tones, notes and series of sounds, like ancient egyptian priests for instance and while there are stories of individuals who were able to hold and move a crowd merely by the manner in which they told a tale or sang a song or played an instrument, neither of these provide sufficient basis in my mind for the manner in which the Bard is portrayed in the PHB. While it may be all too easy to merely chuck the class aside and not allow it in my games, I was wondering if there are any of you who have been able to craft a substitute class that doesnt employ spells and play tested it successfully.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I don't see Bardic magic as being an extension of their musical ability-- it is, after all, not dependent upon their Perform skill.

Bards have spells because of their tendency to gather bits and pieces of knowledge all over the place-- they're dabblers.

 

[SALADIN THE JUST]

I don't see Bardic magic as being an extension of their musical ability-- it is, after all, not dependent upon their Perform skill.

Bards have spells because of their tendency to gather bits and pieces of knowledge all over the place-- they're dabblers.

merely for the sake of argument: do u think picking up bits of information and knowledge here and there during their travels would be sufficient to permit one to become a spell caster albeit one thats a dabbler of magic...perhaps this comes down to how one defines the demands of spell casting...but i tend to see it as an exacting task that requires focus and dedication...as did the Yogis and Saints of our ancient history...

 

[fuindordm]

In 3.0, I gave them 2 more skill points per level, access to all martial weapons, and a bonus feat (drawing some from the rogue's list of special abilities) when they gain a new spell level. No one took that character option, though.

In 3.5, you might just base it off the rogue--I think exchanging the sneak attack progression for bardic music and lore would be a fair trade.

Ben

 

[SALADIN THE JUST]

In 3.0, I gave them 2 more skill points per level, access to all martial weapons, and a bonus feat (drawing some from the rogue's list of special abilities) when they gain a new spell level. No one took that character option, though.

In 3.5, you might just base it off the rogue--I think exchanging the sneak attack progression for bardic music and lore would be a fair trade.

Ben

sounds like a fair integration for a jack-of-all-trades type class that the bard is fashioned after...

 

[S'mon]

My butt-kicking Bard class, based loosely off the C&C version. This is for Celtic-style bards, not faffy medieval minstrels:

Bard/Skald: Very Rare, though there are Norse Skalds and some tribal Bards. These warrior-poets exalt their comrades and strike fear into the hearts of foes. They are the keepers of much lore, but are not spellcasters per se.
Bard/Skald (Ea)
Hit Die: d10
BAB: 1/1
Good Saves: Fort, Will
Weapon Proficiency: All Martial & Simple
Armour Proficiency: Light armour, any shield except tower shield.
Class Skills:
The bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Abilities: Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music - PHB pg 29. Bards may attack in melee or with thrown weapons (but not with loaded missile weapons) while singing. Bardic Rage - a bard may Rage as a Barbarian of equal level, and Barbarian levels stack with Bard levels to determine effects. Bards may sing while Raging.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

merely for the sake of argument: do u think picking up bits of information and knowledge here and there during their travels would be sufficient to permit one to become a spell caster albeit one thats a dabbler of magic...perhaps this comes down to how one defines the demands of spell casting...

"Bits of information and knowledge" is the approach the majority of magic students I know use. I figure it's part of the reason that Wizards have all Knowledge skills as class skills.

All of the core spellcasters have good Will saves-- and I'd generally agree that that's the most important thing involved in working any magic. The "bits of information" just explains why Bards' spells are so eclectic, and why they can do things that arcane magic traditionally cannot.

...but i tend to see it as an exacting task that requires focus and dedication...as did the Yogis and Saints of our ancient history...

Chaotic spellcasters tend to disprove that, in my opinion. While a Chaotic character can be fully dedicated, "focused" and "exacting" are two words I would make certain never to ascribe to them.

You can have a Sorceror throwing around high-level magics with a 6 Intelligence and a 4 Wisdom. While their magic is obviously relying on something, it certainly means that it requires no great investiture of intellect or good sense.

 

[S'mon]

Historically, bards & skalds were known for their berserk fury - the last example I know of was the bard/skald in William's Norman army who kicked off the Battle of Hastings by diving into the middle of Harold's Huscarls on his own!

 

[SALADIN THE JUST]

Historically, bards & skalds were known for their berserk fury - the last example I know of was the bard/skald in William's Norman army who kicked off the Battle of Hastings by diving into the middle of Harold's Huscarls on his own!

thats an interesting variation to the bard, mate...i might use what you've produced and tweak it a little for a prestige class, perhaps

 

[ThoughtBubble]

I have less problems with conceptualizing a bard that casts spells than I do a ranger that casts spells, a non-spontaniously casting divine caster, monks learning to talk with everything, the system of having equivalent spells of equivalent power across the world, wizards as magical copying machines, the difference between knowledge (arcana) and spellcraft checks, the way pre-requisites for creating magic items works, the logic behind the breakdown of perform skills in 3.5 given the relative importance of the skill, or the implications of the summon monster spell.

Comparitively, the bard's pretty easy to imagine. It does, however, require the underlying assumption that anyone who is willing to put effort into it (and has a little talent) can learn at least a few spells. Or it requires an idea of magic being a fundamental underpinning of the D&D universe which can be accessed by individuals. Or, it requires downplaying the 'spellcasting' aspect of it all, and just having it be an extended form of a 'magic touch' at the right place in the right time.

S'mon, I would be all over your Skald class. With D10 HP, full bab, good will saves, martial weapons, 6 skill points, Diplomacy Bluff and Sense motive as class skills, it's like a dream come true! But the rage bit is where it gets a little over the top to me. Maybe I'm the only one who found the bard spells too situational to be worth all that trade off. But it's neat, nonetheless.