Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[CPXB]

Let me describe the situation:

I play in this weekly game that's a pretty typical D&D game. The party consists, currently, of my character, a sixth level monk who is fairly twinked out for combat, a fifth level druid, a fifth level bard and a sixth level sorcerer. The druid has summon monster I & II and the druid, obviously, has wide access to summon nature's ally spells. Our characters are pretty beefy.

The last session the sorcerer's player wasn't there. We went on without him. So it was my monk, the bard and druid.

The party is in a village. There was some role-playing stuff that is largely irrelevant to this discussion. Then the village was attacked by a hill giant. Well, since we're heroes we give out our battle cry and attack. Adventuring is our core business, one might say.

During the fight, I rolled typically well. Given the AC of the giants, 20, and that I was at +10 or +11 to hit, I hit about half the time, including two stunning blows. Natch, none of the stunning blows worked against the good Fort save, high Con giant, but I had to try. Equally obviously, I did not try to use my improved trip on the giant -- bigger *and* stronger. Better just to deal damage, I figured.

So, to emphasize, I was doing pretty normal in the fight.

Enter the now fifth level druid. She's got two third level spells, due to high Wis. So, she summons a dire wolf.

As many hit points. Hits more often. Hits harder.

Then she summons a LION. Lion pounces -- FIVE ATTACKS.

Naturally, her animal companion is in the fight, too. As many hit points, same AC, almost as good to hit and damage.

The fight goes on. We put down one giant. Another appears. Add in two dire badgers.

See me: feeling useless. The dire wolf and the lion damn well ruled that fight -- the wolf could fairly consistently trip the giants, too. So not only was it doing more damage than my monk, the think was better at tripping than my monk! Good lord, and that lion! It pounced the second giant and did something like thirty-five or forty points of damage in one turn! The druid's menagerie did well over sixty points of damage in one turn to the second giant.

I was pretty seriously bummed out. The druid is able to summon critters that are simply better at fighting than my character -- and she can keep summoning them. And it only gets worse from here. I dread summon nature's ally IV -- I looked at those critters and what they'll do in terms of damage compared to a seventh or eighth level monk. It is simply not pretty.

So, like, is my monk irrelevant to the game or am I and the GM missing something?

 

[EPRock]

I was pretty seriously bummed out. The druid is able to summon critters that are simply better at fighting than my character -- and she can keep summoning them. And it only gets worse from here. I dread summon nature's ally IV -- I looked at those critters and what they'll do in terms of damage compared to a seventh or eighth level monk. It is simply not pretty.

So, like, is my monk irrelevant to the game or am I and the GM missing something?

There are many things which makes your monk more unique than the wolf, or summoned monsters.

Summoned Monsters take 1 full round to summon, a good arrow can disrupt the casting of the spell, Dispel Magic can dispel the summoned monsters and voila no one else is there. As a monk you do get some choices on your feat progression, and your feats should be based towards your stat placement.

If it is a problem there are a multitude of ways to prevent the druid from casting the spell, being shot with a ranged weapon, being attacked in melee, spells, counterspell, many things can cancel out spellcasters.

Summoned monsters last for one round per level. That means that monsters can retreat for a few rounds and then poof the damage machine is gone.

 

[Epametheus]

You're a monk.

Monks aren't killing machines by a long shot.

 

[WCrawford]

Ok, let me get this right. You have a party consisting of 3 characters (since one was MIA for the night) with an average level of a bit more than 5. You are facing 2 CR 7 creatures and you complain that the Druid is keeping you alive?

Did you want all the hits from the giants to fall on you, the lightly armored Monk?

Look, summoned creatures from Summon Nature's Ally or Summons Monster Spells are around for only 1 round/level of the caster. They are there to absorb hits that would otherwise go to party members. They are there to put the bad guys down faster.

 

[mikebr99]

I'm going to have to agree with the other posters... You are trying to shine out of your element. You are a 2nd string melee guy trying to compete with the Druid's main ability.

Monks do alot of different things well... you just don't excel in any one thing.

YMMV


Mike

 

[jgsugden]

Suddenly, the evil cleric that guided the giants to the village appears. Protected by protection from magic, he laughs at the summoned animals and prepares to finish off the weakened party. You run across the battle field and smack him once in the face, stunning him.

Before he gets to move again, you've killed him single-handedly.

Every class has its place. The 'new' druid is an effective character, but it is far from overwhelming in power.

 

[Scion]

Pick up a 3.5 monks belt and improved natural attack, if you havent already.

Mainly the monks job is to support whatever is going on, anything that someone is doing you should be able to help with. The ultimate fallback guy

As for making your character 'better' than the animals, he should be by default with equipment. Your ac should still be better, animals generally have a pretty low ac, your attacks should probably hit about the same though since your str will tend to be lower.

Try to get some buff spells from your compatriots, this will help you greatly. Barkskin, bulls strength, owls wisdom, whatever. Anything that they put on you for the day will wind up being better than summoning any one of those animals anyway.

Hope it goes well!

Oh, and if you are playing 3.0 definately try to get the 3.5 monks belt, if you are playing 3.5 get the buffs changed back to 3.0 versions! they just suck for everything in 3.5, whereas the old ones can still actually be good for you.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

Why weren't you grappling and/or stunning? Ok, ok, they were giants. But in most situations you should be able to do both to great effect.

 

[Stalker0]

And of course, one magic circle and none of those summons can hurt anything.

 

[CPXB]

You're a monk.

Monks aren't killing machines by a long shot.

It would have been the same way with a fighter. In some ways worse because a fighter in heavy gear would have been staggering around from fight to fight -- those animals found it damn easy to charge the 100 feet from us to them (so did my monk, BTW) which is something that a fighter would not have been able to do. A fighter would have literally missed out on two rounds of the fight, given its structure -- a fair bit of running around -- and the fight was only five rounds!

Also, since I am considering changing characters I have statted out a sixth level fighter with gear. The fighter would have done roughly the same damage as the monk, had an attack score two better and a two better AC. This would have been offset by the fact the monk's multiple attacks would create a far more likely chance of the monk hitting (at least hitting these giants) -- the fighter would have had a seventy-two percent chance of landing a blow whereas my monk had a seventy-five percent chance of landing a blow and a much better chance of landing two blows.

So, in this particular fight a fighter would have simply been less useful in melee than my monk.