Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[hong]

In your Hill Giant example, your role should have been to provide flanking bonuses for those summoned monsters so they could hit the giants easier, followed by waiting until someone was tripped and then IMMEDIATELY running over and pelting a prone opponent. Trying to solo was a mistake from the beginning - your role is to support and take advantage of every opening.

Relegating a player character to a supporting-cast role is not a solution.

 

[CPXB]

CPXB: I agree with everyone who has said you cannot base an evaluation of your character off one battle. I've seen battles where a thief in our party never got a good flank or a single sneak attack, and ended up doing ZERO damage by the time it was all over. But he can break into shops and get into chests like nobody's business, and without him, things would be so much more difficult. It's not all about the total damage dealt at the end of the day.

The monk in our party is not our main damage dealer, but if he can grab a quick Owl's Wisdom, he has the highest AC. But more than that - as many have already said - he can MOVE ANYWHERE. One time we had an enemy running like crazy for a door to escape, and the monk basically outran him without any effort - no one else could have come close to catching him. You should be maxing tumble and then looking at the battle as a whole; where would you be benefitial this round, and how easy is it for you to be there? In your Hill Giant example, your role should have been to provide flanking bonuses for those summoned monsters so they could hit the giants easier, followed by waiting until someone was tripped and then IMMEDIATELY running over and pelting a prone opponent. Trying to solo was a mistake from the beginning - your role is to support and take advantage of every opening. I have to agree with everyone else who has said that if you're unhappy with your character, you must be playing them ineffectively. There are lots of good ways to play a monk.

Also, if you're looking to beef up a monk, you should check out the Book of Exalted Deeds. You're LG, so you could pick up Vow of Poverty - which makes a monk into a demi-god.

Yeah, we're going to see how it goes, but it was pretty wild the way it did go, hehe.

And my monk didn't fight the hill giant alone, by no means. He was surrounded by the druid's critters -- animal companion and summoned animals - and we were all flanking for each other. We covered that. Along with the trip and pounce 'em while they were down -- it was just that the monk's damage was sort of lost in the noise. "I do 11 points of damage this round!" *Chloe rolls die after die* "I do fifty-four points of damage this round!"

But, yeah, thinking about it there are good ways to play a monk. The mobility angle has been covered enough and . . . well, Rashad can't do that because he's the group's only melee fighter. If he fought like a monk, well, it means most of the time he just wouldn't be in the fight -- the party can't follow him onto narrow ledges over high places where he can kick ass and take names. Heck, they couldn't even keep up.

And if the monk runs away to seek an advantageous position, then what? Either the monsters follow him and he faces them alone or they attack the party without Rashad.

We'll keep at it for a little while longer. Y'all are right that it is unfair to judge by a single battle.

 

[CPXB]

Relegating a player character to a supporting-cast role is not a solution.

Indeed, hehe.

 

[Scion]

Relegating a player character to a supporting-cast role is not a solution.

Some battles certain characters are in the spot light, for some others are. It depends on the time and the opponents. So for some battles some characters will be support, and for others the other characters will be.

Part of being in a team.

 

[CPXB]

Actually, shurikens are thrown weapons in 3.5, you only get one per attack, and you add your strength to the damage.

but since they do d2 vs the sling bullets d4... ::shrugs:: it is a tough call. getting an extra attack per round, the ability to enchant them.. it might work out in your favor eventually. d2+1 is better than d4 when you add on the plus to hit

Ahhh! *shakes fist at version changes* I did not know this. I'll take a look at it, but it seems likely to be a mostly lateral move. Thanks for the 411.

 

[Capellan]

Ways in which your monk outshines summoned animals:

- you don't take a full round spell to introduce to the melee
- you stick around for more than 30 seconds a day
- you have a better AC
- you have (the option of) ranged attacks
- you don't get nerfed by protection from spells
- you ignore DR/magic
- you can tumble to provide flanking bonuses
- stunning fist: not everything has a great Fort save
- you have evasion
- you can vary your attack methods for creatures with DR/weapon or material type

As others have mentioned, you character sheet looks very 'one note': you're all about hitting things. This is probably due to the group you're in, as you lack a 'tank'. Your monk's being asked to fill a roll for which the class probably isn't that suited.

 

[Scion]

If you move up to 3 or more combats per day I will expect to see your compatriots on here asking how they can keep up with the crazy monk/noncasting guys Especially if you get the things I suggested earlier.

 

[hong]

Ways in which your monk outshines summoned animals:

- you don't take a full round spell to introduce to the melee
- you stick around for more than 30 seconds a day
- you have a better AC
- you have (the option of) ranged attacks
- you don't get nerfed by protection from spells
- you ignore DR/magic
- you can tumble to provide flanking bonuses
- stunning fist: not everything has a great Fort save
- you have evasion
- you can vary your attack methods for creatures with DR/weapon or material type

In practice, these advantages simply don't come up very often. Yes, you have more options as a monk. However, these options are rarely that useful, for the issue of grabbing spotlight time: it simply doesn't appeal to lots of people to be able to run very fast or give flanking bonuses for others. That's a Baldrick job. The _animal_ should be the one giving flanking bonuses to the PC, not the other way around.

Perhaps the most useful abilities there for gaining spotlight time are ignoring DR/magic and stunning fist. However, by the time you're facing things with DR/magic, chances are everyone else will have magic weapons, so it's moot. (Remember, you're not just competing with the animals, you're also vying for spotlight time with the other PCs.) And as said, many, many monsters have good Fort saves especially at mid to high levels.

The only real combat schtick for a monk, if you don't want to be the eternal Baldrick, is to be a specialist mage-killer. But that's something that tends to come up once in a blue moon; and even then, spells like fly negate all your movement advantages vis-a-vis the other PCs.

With all good saves, SR, evasion and immunities, the monk is survivable, yes. But there's more to enjoying the game than just living through a battle. If all you wanted was to live, you might as well stay at home while the rest of the group goes into the dungeon. And besides, even a monk is not wholly self-sufficient. At high levels, you _are_ going to get hit, and eventually you _are_ going to fail a save. That's when you need your buddies to cover for you. Just because you fail fewer saves than others doesn't mean you can solo a dungeon.

As others have mentioned, you character sheet looks very 'one note': you're all about hitting things. This is probably due to the group you're in, as you lack a 'tank'. Your monk's being asked to fill a roll for which the class probably isn't that suited.

The monk isn't really suited to _any_ role. That's the problem. If there was a tank, then he'd just be another guy overshadowing the monk.

 

[CPXB]

I must admit that Hong basically articulated my issues with the monk very, very neatly.

 

[Corlon]

I didn't feel like reading the last two pages of this thread, but I figure I'll add my 2 cents in anyways

You said that the druid summoned 2 dire badgers, a dire wolf, a lion, and maybe some other creatures in that battle...how many spells does that leave the druid for any other encounters you may have that day? Your monk used one stunning attack I think, leaving 5 left for the day. The monk is also more of a cool class with his ability to use slow fall and be immune to diseases (which can be useful at times, but aren't generally everyday use things). Specialized, monks can take down just about anything their size or smaller in grappling, and when larger creatures come, just let other people shine. If the DM prefers using creatures from the MM and most happen to be large, then I guess you're out of luck with the grappling, and if no spellcasters, then that's out of the question too (because grappling = cancel their spells and lets not forget the 3 high saves that protect the monk from any spell under the sun. Also evasion). The monk also outdoes the druid skill wise with tumble, hide, move silently, etc. If the campaign isn't one in which these things can be used then tough luck I guess, but maybe you should talk to your DM about that.

Sorry if I've repeated anything that really didn't need repeating.

-Corlon