Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[hong]

you certainly do spout a lot of drivel, why is that?

No, Scion, just because you're wrong and I'm right doesn't make it "drivel".

with a lesser investment than your barb going from str X to str 30.

Barb:
15 Str + 1 level + 6 enhancement + 8 mighty rage = 30.

Monk:
10 Str + 2 level + 6 enhancement + 2 inherent = 20.

Did you not notice what I said about "being conservative"? A more realistic scenario for the barb might be 15 Str + 3 level + 6 enhancement + 2 inherent + 8 mighty rage = 34. A twinked-out scenario for the barb might be 20 Str + 5 level + 6 enhancement + 5 inherent + 8 mighty rage = 44. And with the ability to rage 6 times per day, you can bet your willies that the barb will be raging for every encounter that matters.

Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher.

Did you not notice that the characters in question are 20th level?

Ahh.. so increaseing damage doesnt effect damage. I'll remember that for the future hong.

No Scion, if you're going to steal my schtick, you're going to have to do better than that.

Sure he could, but I was going by your example. he had already used up X amount of gear gp. I merely made an example that did better and had a lesser cost.

Unfortunately, it was nonsensical. But do try again.

Not that each of these examples couldnt be improved of course, I was merely going with the boundaries you had already in place for your barb.

Unfortunately, you failed to comprehend them. But do try again.

Easy enough. In this example the monk wins, hands down.

For certain values of "wins", anyway.

 

[CPXB]

Strangely, my example above works at the lower levels as well, with change left over The only thing that was level dependant was the actual damage being dealt.

Not really, I think. I mean, before 4th level its pretty hard to get any magic gear at all -- and the gear that can be gotten . . . well, roughly none of it favors monks. I mean, the barbarian can get his masterwork greatsword and the fighter can really escalate the armor he wears -- but I remember going through low levels and going, "My character can't get BUPKISS." Further, at fourth level the inclination to get a spiffy weapon was a definite awkward trade-off I was aware of. I chose not to get a masterwork weapon because at fourth level I knew my unarmed damage would make that a lateral move that just, really, wasted money. On the other hand, the barbarian's masterwork greatsword goes straight from masterwork to being enchanted.

So, at low levels, the barbarians damage is just incredibly higher than the monk's -- he'd be doing something like 1d12+4 (bumped up to 1d12+7 if raging) and be far more likely to hit (higher BAB + masterwork weapon + higher Str [vis-a-vis the monk's weapon finesse'd Dex] . . . which is even better when the barbarian rages).

In short, I think in a high level game some of these issues I'm talking about . . . I mean, yeah, you're right. Get a widget of magic fang +5 and a ring of flaming hands of the inferno and, sure, you might be able to kick ass (tho' I still doubt on the same level as the barbarian). But at lower levels, you can't shore up your deficiencies at all with magic. Which is a radical change from higher levels.

 

[youspoonybard]

Hong, you're talking about inherent, right? Or insight?

 

[hong]

Hong, you're talking about inherent, right? Or insight?

Oops, yeah, inherent, insight, same diff.

 

[Scion]

Not really, I think. I mean, before 4th level its pretty hard to get any magic gear at all -- and the gear that can be gotten . . . well, roughly none of it favors monks.

you said 1 - 10, everything I listed works at level 10, and gets smaller as levels increase.

As for the rest of your post though, sure, the barb is made to deal damage. He had better deal more than the monk!!! The monk has all sorts of other advantages, and arent made for hitting that hard. However, they can do just about as well anyway. Staves are monk weapons so early on you can have a masterwork staff and play with that. If your wisdom is really low you can wear some armor until you get enhancements for your wisdom and bracers. These are all easy things to do.

But, at lower levels and higher levels the monk gets more attacks, and has special abilities to make those attacks interesting. So the barb does d12 +7 at 4th? (pretty impressive, 18 str and all.. for that many points you can nearly have 3 othe stats covered, you will be a much better all around character.. that isnt a bad thing, no matter what hong says). you do d6+3/d6+3. Not as impressive, but you have a much greater chance each round to actually do some damage, and with less wasted damage. It doesnt matter if he does 19 points of damage to a guy with 4 hp after all. He'll be better at the big bad guy? sure, that is his emphasis, not yours. If you want big damage play the barb, if you want a whole lot of options while still being able to do decent damage the monk is a good deal.

 

[Bauglir]

Is everyone just totally forgetting BAB?

My experience with the monk generally involves endless flurries of misses..

Also don't forget that the monk forgoes the bonus to hit of a magic weapon by using their natural attacks (you know the class ability) and if they DO use a monk weapon, they will be using (as has been mentioned previously) some pretty feeble weapons.

 

[Will]

Except, of course, the monk can get amulet of mighty fists or monk's belt.

 

[Bauglir]

Does the monk's belt give a bonus to hit? I thought it just increased AC and unarmed damage.

The amulet of mighty fists is a good item, but iirc it's prohibitively expensive (triple the cost of a magic weapon I believe?) Is there a version of it in any of the 3.5e books yet?

Regardless the low BAB is IME still going to sting. You can't just assume a monk will hit the way you can do with a barbarian.

 

[Will]

Well, true. Monks have a lower chance to hit. That's a trade-off with better defenses.

Really, the idea that picking the schtick of 'big tough guy with a huge sword' vs 'fast nimble guy who runs around naked,' I'd be annoyed if I was a barbarian or fighter next to a monk who was doing the same as me.

 

[two]

Well, true. Monks have a lower chance to hit. That's a trade-off with better defenses.

Really, the idea that picking the schtick of 'big tough guy with a huge sword' vs 'fast nimble guy who runs around naked,' I'd be annoyed if I was a barbarian or fighter next to a monk who was doing the same as me.

Except you have not shown that a monk has better "defenses", particularly in point-buy-land.

Except of course for saves. Monks DO have nice saves.

AC? Usually very sub-par, barring scintillating stats and high-money campaign.

Typical Level 4 Monk, with Dex=16, Wis=16 (20 point buy points) = AC 16.

Typical Level 4 Barbarian with Dex 12 + breastplate = AC=16. (note relatively low dex here). Point buy cost = 4.

Cheaper for the Barb to up this AC than the monk (armor bonuses are cheap).

Any other 2nd- or 1st-tier fighter class has well in excess of AC=16 at 4th level, pre-magic. Cleric will have AC 18 with armor+shield, rogue ac=17 with chain shirt+dex, etc. etc. Typically.

Monks have lower hitpoints too, and a monk spending 20 points on a 16 dex, 16 wis has little left over for strength and CON.

So, very low AC, pretty low hitpoints. Good saves and maneuverability. This is worth giving up BAB, weapon damage, etc. ?

How does this monk have "good" defenses, barring saves?