Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[Majere]

To give hong something 20th level to get his teeth into.
Lucky thie invincible !
Halfling monk 20

Point Buy: Str: 12 Dex: 16 Con:14 Wis:16 Int:9 Cha:9
Level 20 : Str: 10 Dex: 23 Con:14 Wis:16 Int:9 Cha:9
Inc Items: Str: 16 Dex: 33 Con:16 Wis:26 Int:9 Cha:9

Wealth: (760k)
Gloves of Dexterity (+6)- 36k
Periapt of Wisdom (+6) - 36k
Iuan Stone (+2Con) - 8k
Belt of Strength (+6) - 36k
Iuan Stone of ac - 5k
Boots of Speed - 12k
Bracers or armor +8 - 64k
Mantle of Faith - 76k
Stone of luck - 20k
Iuan stone Lavender/Gre - 40k
Wand of Barkskin (12th) - 18k
Ring of Protection +5 - 50k
Shield (animated,heavy fortification (heavy))+3,
- 100k
Tome of Dex +4 - 110k
Tome of Wis +4 - 110k
Cloak resistance +5 - 25k

AC: 10+8(armor)+5(shield)+1(small)+1(dodge feat)+11(Dex)+8(Wis)+5(deflection)+1(insight)+1(haste)+5(Wand)+4(monk)
= 60 (55/48)
DR 5/Evil, 10/Magic
Immune To criticals and sneak attacks
Deflect Aroows feat

Wheeeeeee.. and he can always go full defensive for an AC of 66 if he just wants to block a corridor or somesuch. Either way.. people gonna have trouble hitting this PONK!
Try getting your fighters Ac this high
Try hitting me with your fighter

Fort: +12+5+3+1+2 - +23 (Immune to poison,nonmagical diseases)
Ref : +12+5+11+1+2- +31 (With improved evasion)
Will: +12+5+8+1+2 - +28 (With slippery mind)
SR 23
Immune to all spells below 8th level (50 spell levels total)

Magic.. what magic ?
This guy has a great chance of making any save. Even an Int 33 mage will only have a DC of 32.(With School focus) for his highest DC.
So the monk saves on a 9,4 or 2 .. and the caster only has a 50% chance of breaking SR. For the mages BEST spell
Anyone else like those odds ?

HP 20d8+ 60 - 150 - respectable.. might wanna trade out 2 ac for 40 hp and +2 on the Fort save by swapping the amulet and iuan stone about. With Ac of 60 you can afford to take anywhere up to 80 more hp for the dropping of on AC and your will save. But I left it twinked to make the point

Feats
Iron Will, Great fortitude,Lightning reflexes
Weapon focus (unarmed strike),
Dodge,Weapon finesse, Shield proficiency

Attacks
+29/+29/+29/+24/+19 2d8+3
Fists are magical,Lawful,adamantine
Stunning fist DC -28

Ok so not a combat freak, but lets detwink a bit as our ac is so abusively high.. we can Drop the tome of Dex (+4) and the amulet of wis +6 (get back 146k) and buy an amulet of mightyfists for (97k) and a tome of Dex +2 (55k).
Swap lightning reflexes to improved critical
You ac drops by 4 points, new attack routine

+32/+32/+32/+27/+22 2d8+9 (19-20*2)
Firsts are Magical,Lawful,adamantine
Ac 56

Given that a fighter (Str33) might be throwing about an attack routine in the region of +37/+32/+27/+22 d8+3d6+18;your damage is about 1/2 while you have far superior ac and saves.
Only half the damage ? Well you are twinked out far more defensively than the fighter so it seems balanced.

Monks clearly suck as I have just demonstrated.. thank you

Majere

 

[Majere]

1) Sorry the int and cha should have been 9, but they arent important to the rest of the thread.

2) Since when did staying alive stop being important, a large number of creatures in your MM as just that, creatures. You dont have to be a threat.. you just have to be alive and in 3-8 creatures will attack you beacause your are closest.
Yes the BBEG might decide you are not a threat but all fighter types can be dismissed as a threat by most BBEGs simply by summoing a few mooks to stand in the way of the fighter type.
And if you dont happen to fight ever combat in a 100*100 room but in 5' doorways the way manymany dungeons are written, then simply standing at the front gives most mobs no choice over wether they can "simply ignore you"

3) Monks are probably the most defensive and "utility" of the fighter type, as such you do less damage thats balance. But even my twinked out monk was not a million miles behind the fighter type for damage. I could probably write out some twinked out monk who did as much damage as the fighter, but I think what I put down already makes a point.
Monks are more defensive than other fighters.. if you dont like being a defensive melee'r be a barbarian.

 

[Majere]

Diirk -- that's more of a reflection of druids being incredibly powerful than it is a reflection of monks being gimps.

Actually most the problem with the druid comes from the wild armor which is so broken its silly. If you take away the wild armor and shield from that shambler its ac drop back to a much more mediocre 25.
It is just my opinion, but the thing that makes wildshape broken is not so mush wildshape, but the ability to use all your quipment and so on while wildshaped. Shamblers were not written to wear fullplate and shield- that to me is where the imbalance arises.


Im sure you will disagree, but try going through a few wild shape examples and not letting the druids use any of his eq while wild shaped and it works out in a much more balanced way for me.

Majere

 

[Epametheus]

Amusing enough, an equivalent fighter (or a big monster) could deal with that tank simply through improved grab. The monk's touch AC is only a 34 or so (not a guaranteed hit, but still about 50/50), and once the grapple is started the fighter should have around a 10 pt lead over the monk in terms of the grapple check; the edge a big monster would have is even greater. Killing an enemy through grappling is an incredibly slow process, but quite satisfying.,

Granted, most fighters (or players of fighters, rather) wouldn't actually think to try grappling the monk, but they don't realize the joy of kung-fu in spiked full plate.

 

[Diirk]

Wheeeeeee.. and he can always go full defensive for an AC of 66 if he just wants to block a corridor or somesuch. Either way.. people gonna have trouble hitting this PONK!
Try getting your fighters Ac this high
Try hitting me with your fighter

Nice monk, however using that shield disables most of your monk abilities, like flurry, wis bonus to ac, etc. Oops.

And the wild armour thing... its powerful, but then again you don't get any armour special abilities, only the ac. So no fortification, ghost touch, etc. I think animated is much more broken than wild is.

The game I play is pretty restrictive on items while wildshaped, so I don't get the "all your equipment too"... Belts and necklaces are ok, but no rings, no cloaks, hats (except for ape/shambler), no boots, etc. The main result of this is that I have lots of money to spend on armour, and not much else to spend it on. Thats not really the case with most other classes

 

[Ovinomancer]

Wheeeeeee.. and he can always go full defensive for an AC of 66 if he just wants to block a corridor or somesuch. Either way.. people gonna have trouble hitting this PONK!
Try getting your fighters Ac this high
Try hitting me with your fighter

I bull rush him out of the way, and proceed to murder the rest of the party....

 

[Asmo]

Ok, someone post a fighter a lets have a fight and see who wins.
(someone did this in another thread,with a judge, quite fun )

Asmo

 

[Thanee]

To give hong something 20th level to get his teeth into.
Lucky the invincible !
Halfling monk 20

...

Magic.. what magic ?
This guy has a great chance of making any save. Even an Int 33 mage will only have a DC of 32.(With School focus) for his highest DC.
So the monk saves on a 9,4 or 2 ...

...and the caster only has a 50% chance of breaking SR. For the mages BEST spell...

Are you kidding?

SR 23

That's more like breaking SR 100% at 20th level!

Anyways, the monk should have SR 30, if I am not mistaken, that's still easily broken by a 20th level spellcaster (75% of the time, without any special goodies besides Greater Spell Penetration (a must-have at that level), usually higher)!

Anyone else like those odds ?

...

HP 20d8+ 60 - 150 - respectable.

...

Is he immune to sonic? No?

maximized sonic-substituted Meteor Swarm followed by a quickened Power Word Kill

We are talking 20th level here, right?

The fighter will still be standing...

(To be fair, the fighter is as easily killed at that level... )

Bye
Thanee

 

[frankthedm]

dire wolf is quite strong [almost too strong] for the level 3 spell and the lion pounce really goes agaist the 3e rules for attacking

 

[smetzger]

Amusing enough, an equivalent fighter (or a big monster) could deal with that tank simply through improved grab. The monk's touch AC is only a 34 or so (not a guaranteed hit, but still about 50/50), and once the grapple is started the fighter should have around a 10 pt lead over the monk in terms of the grapple check; the edge a big monster would have is even greater. Killing an enemy through grappling is an incredibly slow process, but quite satisfying.,

Granted, most fighters (or players of fighters, rather) wouldn't actually think to try grappling the monk, but they don't realize the joy of kung-fu in spiked full plate.

I agree, I also think the shield is out for the monk. I would make the guy a Human, take Earths Embrace(I think thats the feat from OA that gives you ones size caegory up for grapple) and Combat Reflexes

I'll see if I can get a copy of my players Monk12/Fighter1 and post it. He is the frontline 'fighter' for a group in RttToEE that consists of a Cleric, Druid, Rogue, Nift's Arcane Archer and the Monk. The monk is played by a 1st time player and the character more than pulls his weight in the party and definantly gets his chance to shine. Even when there was a Paladin in the group he got his chance to shine.