It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[ART!]

I like the direction Black Flag is taking, this Friday's news looks like it has a good chance of sticking around

"Project Black Flag is a set of open, core game mechanics that anyone can use to publish game content. It will fill in gaps in the SRD, improve existing 5E material, and ensure a 5E monster book and player book remain available for everyone.

We’re not doing this alone. Along with the support of the community, several publishers are committed to products that are PBF compatible 5E material or PBF originals."

For other 3PPS joining this, see

Project Black Flag Friday: Publishing Partners

Project Black Flag from Kobold Press proudly presents publishing partners including Frog God Games, Ghostfire Gaming, Steamforged Games, and more! Your 5E D&D game will only get better with Black Flag!

koboldpress.com

I already am as much a customer of this group as I am of WotC, and with this being 5e compatible there is no need for it to wither, it still reaches into the WotC part of 5e.

I'm very keen to see where this goes, too. I have some real frustrations of late with 5E just as a system, so I'm invested in seeing what others do with that basic chassis.

In at least one recent interviews, Kyle Brink was asked if 3PPs would be able to make stuff available on DDB and in the new VTT, and Binks said it was possible. That could mean lots of things, of course, but if WOTC were to make that option available, it could be huge. That would get me much more interested in continuing with DDB and investing in their VTT.

 

[Maxperson]

No. Your boycot of WOTC has no effect on 3pp creators WRT this sale and is irrelevant to this thread.

Yes. Your boycot of WOTC hurts 3pp creators compared to if you had not boycotted

You're whole premise is fatally flawed. First, if she wasn't going to buy it anyway, her lack of purchase hurts no one new. Second, nobody is obligated to make a purchase just because someone else might be financially hurt or inconvenienced. If that was the case, you'd have to buy literally everything in the world that was legal to buy, because the lack can hurt someone.

Clearly we don't have to buy everything just so that someone isn't hurt financially. So it stands to reason that we are not obligated to buy an particular thing out there in order to save someone from losing out on some money.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

You're whole premise is fatally flawed. First, if she wasn't going to buy it anyway, her lack of purchase hurts no one new.

@Faolyn was claiming this actually. @ECMO3 was telling it her the opposite was true i.e. what you're saying here.

Second, nobody is obligated to make a purchase just because someone else might be financially hurt or inconvenienced. If that was the case, you'd have to buy literally everything in the world that was legal to buy, because the lack can hurt someone.

Clearly we don't have to buy everything just so that someone isn't hurt financially. So it stands to reason that we are not obligated to buy an particular thing out there in order to save someone from losing out on some money.

That's true.

But if your goal is to not hurt 3PP, and that 3PP is selling a product that supports a WotC product, a group of folks boycotting a product from WotC that they would have normally intended to buy has the possibility of also hurting the sales of the 3PP's supporting product (since purchasers of product A are the most likely purchasers of a product that supports A). That, I think, is the point that the OP was trying to make.

 

[mamba]

But if your goal is to not hurt 3PP, and that 3PP is selling a product that supports a WotC product, a group of folks boycotting a product from WotC that they would have normally intended to buy has the possibility of also hurting the sales of the 3PP's supporting product

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with that, but if I do not buy the WotC product and as a consequence also do not buy this particular 3pp product and instead use the money to buy two different 3pp products, then 3pps as a group have benefited from my WotC boycott.

So saying a WotC boycott is hurting 3pps is not something I agree with. That it might shift the market to be less WotC centric could be true (but even that is unclear as I can play 5e without buying a WotC product (ever, or again, depending on the case)), but that is not the same thing.

 

[Faolyn]

@Faolyn was claiming this actually. @ECMO3 was telling it her the opposite was true i.e. what you're saying here.


That's true.

But if your goal is to not hurt 3PP, and that 3PP is selling a product that supports a WotC product, a group of folks boycotting a product from WotC that they would have normally intended to buy has the possibility of also hurting the sales of the 3PP's supporting product (since purchasers of product A are the most likely purchasers of a product that supports A). That, I think, is the point that the OP was trying to make.

That is a bad premise, for exactly the reasons @Maxperson and I--and many others--have said. It first assumes that people who buy product A are going to buy a supporting product (which isn't true), and it assumes that the only options are product A and things that support it or nothing at all.

There is no difference in not spending money because I don't want for reason A versus not spending money because I don't want to for reason B because trickle-down economics do not work.

I bought Curse of Strahd, and I'd been running it for a long time before I decided to stick it on hiatus for a while. I did a quick search over at DM's Guild and found a ton of products designed to enhance that adventure. 891 items came up when I searched "Curse of Strahd." I was never going to buy any of them in the first place! So me buying from WotC was never going to help any of those creators in the first place.

Secondly, let's assume I actually was planning on buying some of the 3pp to help enhance your game. Now, some of those nearly 900 books are actually 2e and possibly 3x books (which I already own) and some are in a language I can't read (I am sadly monolingual, despite my best efforts), but how many of the remaining hundreds of supplements would I have to buy before I'm considered to be "helping" 3pp creators? All of them? Would I be allowed to buy only one really high-rated book (which means that the creator probably has quite a large number of buyers and therefore doesn't actually need my help), or should I buy many low-rated books by creators who are just starting out and could use the boost? And if it's the latter, how many is many? Would I have to buy books written in another language as well, or do French writers not deserve to be helped?

There's 133 products there tagged "Radiant Citadel" and 126 tagged "Shadow of the Dragon Queen." Again, ignoring material from earlier editions and that aren't in English, how many must I buy before it's helpful to 3pp creators?

I am helping 3pp creators by directly buying 3pp material--just not material made specifically for 5e settings and adventures. Those 3pp creators are getting my money directly. How much money are you and @ECMO3 giving directly to those creators?

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

That is a bad premise, for exactly the reasons @Maxperson and I--and many others--have said. It first assumes that people who buy product A are going to buy a supporting product (which isn't true), and it assumes that the only options are product A and things that support it or nothing at all.

That is not what I said. What I said was that people who buy product A are the most likely to be the purchasers of a supporting product. You're taking my statement to an extreme.

I don't understand your second statement...

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with that, but if I do not buy the WotC product and as a consequence also do not buy this particular 3pp product and instead use the money to buy two different 3pp products, then 3pps as a group have benefited from my WotC boycott.

There's some merit to that. Nice counter-argument to the OP.

 

[Maxperson]

But if your goal is to not hurt 3PP, and that 3PP is selling a product that supports a WotC product, a group of folks boycotting a product from WotC that they would have normally intended to buy has the possibility of also hurting the sales of the 3PP's supporting product (since purchasers of product A are the most likely purchasers of a product that supports A). That, I think, is the point that the OP was trying to make.

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe I hate WotC's guts and think they are poopy pants. If I don't want their Planescape supplement, but I do want to buy Planescape stuff for my game, my only recourse in that case is to go to 3PP that I might not have gone to had I liked WotC.

Since they are using the same format as Spelljammer for Planescape, I think they are going to do as crappy a job with Planescape. That means that if I want decent Planescape stuff for 5e, I will only have 3pp to go to.

There's no way to compare how many people will not buy 3PP stuff because they don't like WotC to how may will buy it just because they need something WotC isn't giving them. I'm not going to accept that 3pp will be hurt by those not buying WotC stuff based solely on the assumption of someone here. I will need hard proof to back it up.

Edited to correct a really bad sentence in the first paragraph.

 

[Faolyn]

That is not what I said. What I said was that people who buy product A are the most likely to be the purchasers of a supporting product. You're taking my statement to an extreme.

But there's zero guarantee that will be the case. I think it's probably safe to say that a majority of people who buy an adventure or sourcebook aren't also going to buy a 3pp supplement for it as well.

I don't understand your second statement...

I shall repeat: if the premise is that we need to buy WotC books in order to support 3pp creators, then unless you believe that WotC donates the proceeds of their books to 3pp creators or money magically appears in these creators' bank accounts, then you must believe that we must support 3pp creators by buying 3pp books. Yes?

And if the other premise is that, by not buying these WotC books, I am somehow harming all of the creators, then how many different 3pp books do I need to buy in order to help them all? Do I need to buy every single 3pp book that comes out, or can I just buy a couple of them, or one?

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

But there's zero guarantee that will be the case.

Right. But not the point. See below.

I think it's probably safe to say that a majority of people who buy an adventure or sourcebook aren't also going to buy a 3pp supplement for it as well.

That's true. But, again, not the point. Of the group of people who do buy a 3PP supplement, what percentage would you say also own the product that supplement is based on?

I shall repeat: if the premise is that we need to buy WotC books in order to support 3pp creators, then unless you believe that WotC donates the proceeds of their books to 3pp creators or money magically appears in these creators' bank accounts, then you must believe that we must support 3pp creators by buying 3pp books. Yes?

With you here.

And if the other premise is that, by not buying these WotC books, I am somehow harming all of the creators, then how many different 3pp books do I need to buy in order to help them all? Do I need to buy every single 3pp book that comes out, or can I just buy a couple of them, or one?

No! That is not the other premise. You are quite off topic here. Harming all creators?

The single, narrow point I was backing the OP on (and I think the single, narrow point that you and the OP having been going back and forth on) is specifically the case where a consumer, who under normal circumstances would have bought a WotC product, now decides to boycott that product. What the OP is saying on this narrow point (that same point you both have been going back and forth on), is that this circumstance harms the 3PP whose product is a supplement to the WotC product because even though not all (yes, no guarantee, of course there isn't) but statistically most of that product's sales will be from an owner of that particular WotC product.

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with that, but if I do not buy the WotC product and as a consequence also do not buy this particular 3pp product and instead use the money to buy two different 3pp products, then 3pps as a group have benefited from my WotC boycott.

It seems that @mamba understands what the OP and I are saying. They understood, and gave a lovely response. If you go back and read the post that mamba is responding to, you'll see that one part of this response of theirs is wrong:

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with that...

You are someone who is disagreeing with that!

In any case, that's all I wanted to say on the topic. I just popped in on this thread and goggled when I saw that this argument was still going on and (maybe foolishly) tossed in my two cents. Adios, real life beckons...