Item creation with no XP cost?
- Thread starter Phaedrus
- Start date
Nifelhein
First Post
Phaedrus,
That time thing seem to be a globalization tuned effect... as all people I know are suffering of it. And fear not, the best thing about D&D is that when you have time or not, you still can think about it...
die_kluge, I learned a lot too and yes, it is iolite... I think that section has been a great insight, i just love that lore of the real world thing... shows one that fantasy is not that far after all!
Whenever you work on any other book, let me know, since I will surely check the reviews of it and it has at least a good point on its side, as I trust your work now.
Now enough of compliments and back to lurker mode.
That time thing seem to be a globalization tuned effect... as all people I know are suffering of it. And fear not, the best thing about D&D is that when you have time or not, you still can think about it...
die_kluge, I learned a lot too and yes, it is iolite... I think that section has been a great insight, i just love that lore of the real world thing... shows one that fantasy is not that far after all!
Whenever you work on any other book, let me know, since I will surely check the reviews of it and it has at least a good point on its side, as I trust your work now.
Now enough of compliments and back to lurker mode.
lord_banus
First Post
To step back and look at this problem from another angle. The XP loss is supposed to represent using life force from what I understand. This is the Roleplaying Reason, the mega-game reason is to stop players from being Magic Item factories. So If we can solve these two reasons we'll be right.
My Solution (untested) Number 1:
Magic Item creation requires a fort save (DC fairly easy based on power of item) at end of creation or the character looses 1 CON point permanently. This is a harse version but may be suitable for some. It directly represents the life force draining as well as making players think twice about doing it too many times.
Solution 2:
Same as above but the CON drain only occurs when the item is destroyed. This changes the dynamics of magic item purchase in that you would never sell the items but still leaves room for items found in hordes.
My Solution (untested) Number 1:
Magic Item creation requires a fort save (DC fairly easy based on power of item) at end of creation or the character looses 1 CON point permanently. This is a harse version but may be suitable for some. It directly represents the life force draining as well as making players think twice about doing it too many times.
Solution 2:
Same as above but the CON drain only occurs when the item is destroyed. This changes the dynamics of magic item purchase in that you would never sell the items but still leaves room for items found in hordes.
Nifelhein
First Post
How about making a choice, every item burns one spell slot of the character, the slot is from a level equal to the highest spell level he can cast, thus he would never abuse it and would indeed take good care of the items he made.
By the way, that is an option foun in the book! Damn, no original thoughts on this anymore...
By the way, that is an option foun in the book! Damn, no original thoughts on this anymore...
lord_banus
First Post
Nifelhein said:How about making a choice, every item burns one spell slot of the character, the slot is from a level equal to the highest spell level he can cast, thus he would never abuse it and would indeed take good care of the items he made.
By the way, that is an option foun in the book! Damn, no original thoughts on this anymore...
Thats good on the abuse front but for the draining life force idea it doesn't really fit. It is more of a burning of mental capacity. Might be fine for some settings based on the world view of magic.
We could also do permanent hit point damage.
Nifelhein
First Post
There are other options too, like only time and money, experience, personal investment (Xp), slot expenditure, special materials.
That is what I can think of to limit the creation, aside from that special situations, places and events might be other requirements.
In 2nd edition we had a more special, unusual and unique flavour, that I like a lot. Midnight has power nexus, only there can one make an item. I like the materials idea too.
But making the actual creation be more of a process to make it be born would be interesting too.
That is what I can think of to limit the creation, aside from that special situations, places and events might be other requirements.
In 2nd edition we had a more special, unusual and unique flavour, that I like a lot. Midnight has power nexus, only there can one make an item. I like the materials idea too.
But making the actual creation be more of a process to make it be born would be interesting too.
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I'm currently running a mythic game that has every character being immortal. Arranging the game in this way encourages the PCs to take advantage of downtime, both in the making of items and the helping of their descendents in various subtle and decidedly non-subtle ways. Since levels are story awards, and not enough time has elapsed since the beginning of the world for there to be huge piles of treasure sitting around, there is no incentive for the group to split and go adventuring on their own.
Because I wanted the nonmagical smiths of the setting to make really cool items, I made it so that smiths could essentially make magic weapons nonmagically, and without XP, with the tradeoff being that it takes years.
I made it so that the Craft DC of the magical component was 30, and it was priced in copper pieces rather than silver pieces. A smith who is able to complete it by taking 10 the entire time takes 4 years to make a +1 weapon, and with the assistance rules I added on to this process, it takes 10.5 years for a +2 weapon and the two people crafting having take 10 results of 40 and 30.
Other powers can be added besides straight combat bonuses, and all require special components to do. This requires the ability to give a firm "NO!" to the players on occasion., both on the appropriateness of the powers and what will be required for the special components. My group is pretty flexible and has a good idea of the mood I'm trying to evoke.
Almost forgot. In exchange for the massive amount of time spent, the plusses on the weapon are not subject to dispelling, disjoining, and aren't suppressed in an antimagic field. It's craftsmanship, not magic. Haven't yet decided on the special abilities, as it hasn't come up, but I know I'll have to make a ruling eventually.
An example of this in action:
The kingdom controlled by the mortal descendents of Wesn the Mighty was overrun by goblins (essentially humanoid locusts IMC). He's already faked his death and is trying to say out of the limelight because he's made the Grand-daddy of all Dracoliches rather angry with him. He notes that the last daughter of the family is pregnant, and starts working on a smithing masterpiece, hoping that the eventual child will be inclined to take up the sword.
Calculations indicate that, even with the help of another weaponsmaster in the group, it will take about 11 years to finish a +2 bastard sword. They had already come into the materials necessary, so work begins right away. The scout and the spellcaster each go to work, the scout attempting to find the goblin nest/hive and the other piecing together spells of protection (all spells are unique now, since magic is new). Meanwhile, the "face" of the group begins spreading a prophecy about the one who will save the land from the goblins (Wesn's great-to-the-nth-granddaughter, of course; the player's own idea), with the intention of eventually making the girl able to gather an army around her. All during downtime, narrated out with maybe a few die rolls to keep things out of dispute and quick.
11 years later, the scout's found out where they need to go, the spellcaster has his spells together, and the weaponsmiths have finished the bastard sword. The little girl, who has actually taken quite readily to running things through with pointy objects, now gets to practice with the real weapon, and downtime ends.
This kind of thing won't work for all campaigns, and so far I've limited it to just weapons and armor. But that's how it works for me so far, and it works well for the players and the game.
Because I wanted the nonmagical smiths of the setting to make really cool items, I made it so that smiths could essentially make magic weapons nonmagically, and without XP, with the tradeoff being that it takes years.
I made it so that the Craft DC of the magical component was 30, and it was priced in copper pieces rather than silver pieces. A smith who is able to complete it by taking 10 the entire time takes 4 years to make a +1 weapon, and with the assistance rules I added on to this process, it takes 10.5 years for a +2 weapon and the two people crafting having take 10 results of 40 and 30.
Other powers can be added besides straight combat bonuses, and all require special components to do. This requires the ability to give a firm "NO!" to the players on occasion., both on the appropriateness of the powers and what will be required for the special components. My group is pretty flexible and has a good idea of the mood I'm trying to evoke.
Almost forgot. In exchange for the massive amount of time spent, the plusses on the weapon are not subject to dispelling, disjoining, and aren't suppressed in an antimagic field. It's craftsmanship, not magic. Haven't yet decided on the special abilities, as it hasn't come up, but I know I'll have to make a ruling eventually.
An example of this in action:
The kingdom controlled by the mortal descendents of Wesn the Mighty was overrun by goblins (essentially humanoid locusts IMC). He's already faked his death and is trying to say out of the limelight because he's made the Grand-daddy of all Dracoliches rather angry with him. He notes that the last daughter of the family is pregnant, and starts working on a smithing masterpiece, hoping that the eventual child will be inclined to take up the sword.
Calculations indicate that, even with the help of another weaponsmaster in the group, it will take about 11 years to finish a +2 bastard sword. They had already come into the materials necessary, so work begins right away. The scout and the spellcaster each go to work, the scout attempting to find the goblin nest/hive and the other piecing together spells of protection (all spells are unique now, since magic is new). Meanwhile, the "face" of the group begins spreading a prophecy about the one who will save the land from the goblins (Wesn's great-to-the-nth-granddaughter, of course; the player's own idea), with the intention of eventually making the girl able to gather an army around her. All during downtime, narrated out with maybe a few die rolls to keep things out of dispute and quick.
11 years later, the scout's found out where they need to go, the spellcaster has his spells together, and the weaponsmiths have finished the bastard sword. The little girl, who has actually taken quite readily to running things through with pointy objects, now gets to practice with the real weapon, and downtime ends.
This kind of thing won't work for all campaigns, and so far I've limited it to just weapons and armor. But that's how it works for me so far, and it works well for the players and the game.
SinisterMinister
Explorer
If the idea is to come up with another game penalty to replace the lose of XP, why not introduce some external factors?
Ex. The magical energy spent to infuse magic into ano otherwise ordinary ring, sword, etc. is so great that anyone with an affinity for magic in a 10 (25, 100, 1000) mile radius will be able to sense it. And some of them might be interested in appropriating said item for themselves.
The more powerful the magic item, the easier it will be for someone to sense it's creation.
That should keep an enterprising wizard from making +3 weapons for all his buddies, no matter how much it costs.
Ex. The magical energy spent to infuse magic into ano otherwise ordinary ring, sword, etc. is so great that anyone with an affinity for magic in a 10 (25, 100, 1000) mile radius will be able to sense it. And some of them might be interested in appropriating said item for themselves.
The more powerful the magic item, the easier it will be for someone to sense it's creation.
That should keep an enterprising wizard from making +3 weapons for all his buddies, no matter how much it costs.
tauton_ikhnos
First Post
Heh. Talked to my GM about XP = time. Short answer: no, no, heck no.
Admittedly, we are vicious munchkins, but he acted like we were going to hire a stable of wizards during downtime, or rather, as if we weren't going to do that anyway
I've pointed him to this thread. I don't think he's going to go with an alternate method, though.
Masque: That looks really fricking cool. We'd probably get bogged down in the details of all those decades/centuries, though. Trying to pry the last drop of advantage out
Admittedly, we are vicious munchkins, but he acted like we were going to hire a stable of wizards during downtime, or rather, as if we weren't going to do that anyway
I've pointed him to this thread. I don't think he's going to go with an alternate method, though.
Masque: That looks really fricking cool. We'd probably get bogged down in the details of all those decades/centuries, though. Trying to pry the last drop of advantage out
Bendris Noulg
First Post
Couldn't agree more. One of the rules I apply is that of sympathetic item creation, meaning that the total item must be made by the enhancing spellcaster. Ex: Want to make a magic sword, put on the apron and gloves, grab the hammer and tongs, and get yer butt in the forge, buddy.tauton_ikhnos said:
Granted, my way of handling magic items probably wouldn't help Phaedrus much (double the creation price, no market price, the above change, research time, power components, True Ritual to enhance, etc. etc. etc.), but figured I'd point out that if the GM adds time to the calculation, the GM is also obligated to make the time available.
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