Item saving throws

[Kerrick]

Quick question regarding item saves: When do you use Fort, and whe do you use Will? Glancing through the spells in the PHB, I think that a Fort save is required when you're attempting to damage/change the object (polymorph any object, shatter), while a Will save applies if you're just laying an enchantment over the object (nondetection, obscure object). The PHB was really vague on this point - it says only that unattended objects automatically fail their saves, attended objects use their owners' saves, and magic items have a save of 2+1/2 caster level.

On another note: if the Fort save for damaging spells is true, then why does shatter have a Will save?

 

[cptg1481]

Some Help??

There is a paragraph on pg 176 DMG 3.0 that references saving throws for "magic items".


It say that magic items use the same bonus to their saves (which = 2+1/2 of the items caster level) regardless of the type (reflex, will, fortitude).

I'm sure the answer is somewhere for mundane items as well but I would guess that it is the same general principle since items (excepting intelligent ones) have no ability scores.

Hope that helps some...at least its a place to start.

 

[cptg1481]

Some Help??

There is a paragraph on pg 176 DMG 3.0 that references saving throws for "magic items".


It say that magic items use the same bonus to their saves (which = 2+1/2 of the items caster level) regardless of the type (reflex, will, fortitude).

I'm sure the answer is somewhere for mundane items as well but I would guess that it is the same general principle since items (excepting intelligent ones) have no ability scores.

Hope that helps some...at least its a place to start.

 

[cptg1481]

Some Help??

There is a paragraph on pg 176 DMG 3.0 that references saving throws for "magic items".


It say that magic items use the same bonus to their saves (which = 2+1/2 of the items caster level) regardless of the type (reflex, will, fortitude).

I'm sure the answer is somewhere for mundane items as well but I would guess that it is the same general principle since items (excepting intelligent ones) have no ability scores.

Hope that helps some...at least its a place to start.

 

[cptg1481]

WOW A TRIPPLE PLAY!!!!!

SORRY ALL, GUESS I WAS TRIGGER HAPPY....

 

[hong]

Quick question regarding item saves: When do you use Fort, and whe do you use Will?

You use whatever the spell description says.

The PHB was really vague on this point - it says only that unattended objects automatically fail their saves, attended objects use their owners' saves, and magic items have a save of 2+1/2 caster level.

Unattended _nonmagical_ objects fail their saves. Magical objects always get a save. They either use their own save (2 + 1/2 caster level) or their user's save, whichever is better. Of course, if they're unattended, then they don't have a user and must rely on their own saves.

On another note: if the Fort save for damaging spells is true, then why does shatter have a Will save?

The Will save is for the item's _user_ to keep his item from getting smashed to bits. Note that if you use shatter to target a single crystalline creature, it's a Fort save for half damage.

 

[Kerrick]

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Originally posted by Kerrick
Quick question regarding item saves: When do you use Fort, and whe do you use Will?
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You use whatever the spell description says.

I know that... I'm asking because I'm creating new spells.

The Will save is for the item's _user_ to keep his item from getting smashed to bits.

Wouldn't it be a Reflex save to get it out of the way?

Note that if you use shatter to target a single crystalline creature, it's a Fort save for half damage.

Yes, I know that too. That makes sense, but requiring a Will save (from the holder or the item) to avoid being broken just doesn't make sense. Will saves apply to mental attacks; Fort saves apply to physical ones.

 

[hong]

I know that... I'm asking because I'm creating new spells.

Shouldn't this be on House Rules then?

Wouldn't it be a Reflex save to get it out of the way?

It's a targeted spell. You don't dodge it, just like you don't dodge a hold person, feeblemind or horrid wilting. You _resist_ the effects.

Yes, I know that too. That makes sense, but requiring a Will save (from the holder or the item) to avoid being broken just doesn't make sense. Will saves apply to mental attacks; Fort saves apply to physical ones.

Only sometimes. Notice how you make a Will save to avoid getting munched by inflict X wounds, holy smite/unholy blight, and harm.

In this case, a Fort save doesn't apply because it's not the user who's risking being damaged. A Ref save doesn't apply because there's no dodging involved (see above). Therefore, a Will save is the way to go. You can handwave this as the force of will of the user repelling the spell's malevolent effects, or whatever takes your fancy.