Items with always active properties held in off-hand with shield

Perun

Mushroom
It's basically what the (lengthy) subject line says. One of my players asked me if an always active property of an item (a totem, in this case) will continue to work if the item is held in the off hand when the character is already using a light shield. He's aware that he can't use the totem for his druid evocations while it's held in the shield hand, but we're not clear on the always active, not-really-all-that-useful-in-combat stuff. I think you have to actively wield a weapon or implement to gain any of its properties or abilities... but on the other hand, you could hold a sunrod (which admittedly, is neither a weapon nor an implement) in the shield hand and it will still shed light, which is generally more useful to a character that doesn't have low-light vision or darkvision than a Perception bonus.

For the record, the character is a gnome bard, with the Initiate of the Old Faith feat, and the item in question is the Totem of the Watchful Spirit (I think).

Thanks in advance.

Regards.
 
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DreamChaser

Explorer
As I understand it, you only gain the benefit of an item when it is properly equipped. This means you can't gain the benefit of a sword while it is sheathed nor or a shield when it is slung across your back.

In the case of any weapon or implement, I would only allow the property to function if the character is able to use the active (attack / daily) abilities of the item which means it must be in an emply hand.

The difference with a sunrod is that it doesn't have a benefit. It simply has a function - one that operates equally well strapped to your head, hung on a wall, and sunk into a barrel of ale.

DC
 

eamon

Explorer
According to The FAQ, you benefit from implement properties of implements held in the same hand as a light shield.

The PHB (p. 225) merely states that properties are constantly active; the AV (p. 56) elaborates specifically for weapon properties, stating that you must be wielding a weapon to benefit.
 

DreamChaser

Explorer
According to The FAQ, you benefit from implement properties of implements held in the same hand as a light shield.

The PHB (p. 225) merely states that properties are constantly active; the AV (p. 56) elaborates specifically for weapon properties, stating that you must be wielding a weapon to benefit.

These ideas contradict each other (as is often the case with FAQ items). Implements are "weapons" for casters. If AV is correct, then the FAQ is not. If the FAQ is correct then AV is not.

It raises the question of why a magical dagger held along with the light shield with a sword and board fighter (or warlord) would not grant it's property but the wand held by a bard would. Or the dagger held by the bard who took Arcane Implement Proficiency to gain dagger as an implement.

Or what about the fact that many weapons simply are implements...staffs for example. Technically, a light or heavy blade is always an implement for swordmages everywhere. Why can't my fighter gain the benefit of the short sword he holds with his shield...it is an implement for his swordmage buddy?

IMO, treating Implements and Weapons as different from each other when it comes to properties working is a scary and arbitrary ruling that penalizes the martial power source and defenders over the other roles / sources.

IMO, the only difference between implements and weapons is the type of power they are used with.

My ruling that is (I believe) in line with the RAI:

Weapon / Implement = grants bonus to attack and damage when used with a power that has the correct keyword. If a power has the Weapon keyword, you gain the weapon's proficiency bonus. If the power has the implement keyword, you don't. If it has neither keyword, you cannot use a weapon / implement to use the power. In order to gain any benefits from a weapon, implement (attack bonus, damage bonus, property, powers), you must be properly wielding the item.

Thus, a swordmage cannot use swordmage implement powers with a glaive held in one hand; a bard cannot use an implement power with a wand held in the hand he uses to hold his shield. A ranger cannot attack with a ranged power using the bow strapped to his back. In all of these cases, the character's don't gain the benefit of any properties, either.

There are no other differences between these types of items.

DC
 
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Oompa

First Post
These ideas contradict each other (as is often the case with FAQ items). Implements are "weapons" for casters. If AV is correct, then the FAQ is not. If the FAQ is correct then AV is not.

It raises the question of why a magical dagger held along with the light shield with a sword and board fighter (or warlord) would not grant it's property but the wand held by a bard would. Or the dagger held by the bard who took Arcane Implement Proficiency to gain dagger as an implement.

Or what about the fact that many weapons simply are implements...staffs for example. Technically, a light or heavy blade is always an implement for swordmages everywhere. Why can't my fighter gain the benefit of the short sword he holds with his shield...it is an implement for his swordmage buddy?

IMO, treating Implements and Weapons as different from each other when it comes to properties working is a scary and arbitrary ruling that penalizes the martial power source and defenders over the other roles / sources.

IMO, the only difference between implements and weapons is the type of power they are used with.

My ruling that is (I believe) in line with the RAI:

Weapon / Implement = grants bonus to attack and damage when used with a power that has the correct keyword. If a power has the Weapon keyword, you gain the weapon's proficiency bonus. If the power has the implement keyword, you don't. If it has neither keyword, you cannot use a weapon / implement to use the power. In order to gain any benefits from a weapon, implement (attack bonus, damage bonus, property, powers), you must be properly wielding the item.

Thus, a swordmage cannot use swordmage implement powers with a glaive held in one hand; a bard cannot use an implement power with a wand held in the hand he uses to hold his shield. A ranger cannot attack with a ranged power using the bow strapped to his back. In all of these cases, the character's don't gain the benefit of any properties, either.

There are no other differences between these types of items.

DC

And me thinking it was quite simple;

- An implement used to cast a power must be wielded in a free hand (no light shield)
- An implement used for its passive benefit (+1 defences or something like that) can be hold in the light shield hand, but the user cannot use that implement for an attack unless it switches hands..
- An implement stowed in a bag or between a belt does not function.
 

UltimaGabe

First Post
These ideas contradict each other (as is often the case with FAQ items). Implements are "weapons" for casters. If AV is correct, then the FAQ is not. If the FAQ is correct then AV is not.

I see no reason why the two can't both be correct. Weapons, although they fulfill the same role as implements, are different than implements. Specifically, their magical properties are a different category. You can't have a vorpal Holy Symbol, for example, and you can't have a Dagger of Enfeeblement. Enchanting a weapon requires choosing an ability from a different list than enchanting an implement. Why can the rule not mean that Implement special abilities (that is, special abilities derived from the Rod, Staff, Orb, Wand, Holy Symbol, or Totem sections of the relevant sourcebook) can function when held by a shield-bearing hand, but weapon special abilities (special abilities derived from the weapon sections of the relevant sourcebook) can't?
 

DreamChaser

Explorer
I see no reason why the two can't both be correct. Weapons, although they fulfill the same role as implements, are different than implements. Specifically, their magical properties are a different category. You can't have a vorpal Holy Symbol, for example, and you can't have a Dagger of Enfeeblement. Enchanting a weapon requires choosing an ability from a different list than enchanting an implement. Why can the rule not mean that Implement special abilities (that is, special abilities derived from the Rod, Staff, Orb, Wand, Holy Symbol, or Totem sections of the relevant sourcebook) can function when held by a shield-bearing hand, but weapon special abilities (special abilities derived from the weapon sections of the relevant sourcebook) can't?

This is a specious argument. Each implement type (including weapons) has it's own list. Saying that weapons have different enchantments doesn't make them any different from any other implement.

If one permits implements to grant passive benefits (like +1 to defenses) when held but unusable one must logically grant it to weapons as well to avoid penalizing weapon-focused characters.

DC
 

eamon

Explorer
This is a specious argument. Each implement type (including weapons) has it's own list. Saying that weapons have different enchantments doesn't make them any different from any other implement.
Let's follow your logic for a moment: the question being whether implements and weapons are the same thing. You are confronted with a difference between implements and weapons (namely, usability of properties without "wielding" them). You are also confronted with another related difference (the enchantments which provide said properties). You suggest this difference doesn't actually make them different. Then you suggest that since they aren't different, this difference doesn't exist!

Well, that solves it: since there's no difference, there's no difference.

If one permits implements to grant passive benefits (like +1 to defenses) when held but unusable one must logically grant it to weapons as well to avoid penalizing weapon-focused characters.
Penalizing weapon based characters simply doesn't come into it; there's a whole bunch of other rules with also don't work identically (just to start with, the damage dice, proficiency bonuses and feats available; the powers that use them, the class features of the classes that focus on them, etc.), so you can't just assume that some (fairly tiny) balance difference like this isn't actually balanced by anything else. In fact, due to the variety of weapon-specific feats+items, the common stance is rather that weapon users have a small edge, resulting in the fact that it's somewhat attractive to use weapons as implements when possible.

In any case, weapons are not a type of implement. They may be similar, but they are not identical - as, for instance, in this case (but see below). There are also various other relevant distinctions


  • You can use a weapon you are not proficient with to attack. You cannot use an implement you are not proficient with. Using a weapon you aren't proficient with means losing its proficiency bonus (p. 219)
  • Weapons have specific damage dice; implements do not.
  • Weapons differ in terms of proficiency bonuses and range (or reach and other properties). These modify the usage of most weapon powers. Implements have neither.
  • Being proficient with a weapon means you can use that weapon equally well for Weapon powers that you know of any source and of any class (barring a few explicit exceptions). By contrast, implements are tied to classes. If you learn a power from another class, you cannot use implements from your primary class (that aren't also implements of your secondary class) with powers of that secondary class even if they are implement powers.

Now, though weapons aren't implements, it is true that this distinction (concerning properties) isn't very consistent: a better reason being because some PC's can use weapons as implements. What to do with such characters? Well, the rules seem to suggest that as long as you can wield it as an implement, it's properties are active when merely held. Yes, that's pretty nasty - I think we can assume that this wasn't a focus of the design team.

But let's not exaggerate the problem. It's surmountable. Also, weapon properties tend to only affect powers delivered with the weapon (again according to the AV). For such properties, there's no conundrum; who cares if the property is active on a weapon that isn't wielded if it only affects attacks made with it - there aren't any such attacks.

In any case, some properties don't look to be written with the "you must wield it" rule in mind anyhow. For example, a brilliant energy weapon gives off bright light unless covered and sheathed. Presumably, that property is active even when it's not even held, otherwise the "covered and sheathed" part is a little pointless. The vast majority clearly affect attacks (made using the weapon), and there's no issue of them being active or not when held; it just doesn't matter. Others clearly apply at all times - again, there's no issue with weapons vs. implements here. Only very few weapons really have properties that might have an effect when not wielded in the first place.

What does wielding as used in D&D mean any how? It's not even clearly defined, but it looks to be attack related; you need to wield a weapon to attack with it. Most properties are also attack related. I think it's quite reasonable to assume the AV section is written in this context - i.e. that the requirement to be wielding a weapon (i.e., to be able to attack with it) applies specifically to those (most common) properties that affect attacks. In short, they're explaining not a generic limitation of properties, but rather the context within which you should interpret them. If a property speaks of affecting an attack somehow, the assumption is that you are using that weapon for the attack.

To wrap it up:

  • Weapons are not implements (or vice versa)
  • Implement properties are active even when merely held
  • Weapon properties are active only when wielded - but there are properties for which this apparently doesn't hold; they don't make any exception explicit, but it looks obvious there should be one. This rule not on stable footing.
  • The system isn't water-tight anyhow; weapons can be used as implements, so for some (rare) properties that actually affect things other than attacks, there may be some confusion.
  • For the vast, vast majority of cases, there won't be a problem, and for most of the remaining cases, the problem will be minor; whichever way the DM rules (on weapon properties that affect non-attack actions when used as implements by PC's that can do so) will be fine.
 
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DreamChaser

Explorer
Let's follow your logic for a moment: the question being whether implements and weapons are the same thing. You are confronted with a difference between implements and weapons (namely, usability of properties without "wielding" them). You are also confronted with another related difference (the enchantments which provide said properties). You suggest this difference doesn't actually make them different. Then you suggest that since they aren't different, this difference doesn't exist!

No...I'm saying that the reason given for the difference was not a reason that defined there being a difference. Saying that item x has different enchantments than item y does not define a difference beyond item x and item y...it showcases a difference between the specifics not the categories.

Rods, wands, orbs, staffs, holy symbols, totems, tomes, ki focuses, and weapons draw from different enchantment lists. That does not tell anything about their role or properties (that is to adjust attack and damage rolls), it just says they fall into different categories when it comes to enchantments.

We really have two entirely unrelated taxonomies: combat function and enchantment list / type of item.

IF, all implements (regardless of type) drew from one list and all weapons from another, this would be a valid argument. It is not, thus it is not. Thus my comment about **that** argument being specious.

Additionally, given that CustServe and FAQ entries have long had a tendency to apply liberal and not always textually supported interpretations to the RAW, the point of this thread is essentially the question of whether said "difference" as stated in the FAQ is valid and thus, whether it is actually a difference or not.

That being said, eamon, you have draw to mind differences that I had not specifically considered in my post...the able to wield while not proficient and fixed damage. I concede that weapons and implements clearly fall into different subclasses of attack / damage items.

Still, I hold that a ruling that allows a property to be gained while not actually / correctly wielding the item is not in keeping with the intent of the rules given that off hand weapons, rings, and all worn items only function when properly worn, held, applied. You can't wear rings in your ears, you can put boots on your hands, etc. and gain the benefit of said items.

eamon said:
What does wielding as used in D&D mean any how? It's not even clearly defined, but it looks to be attack related; you need to wield a weapon to attack with it. Most properties are also attack related. I think it's quite reasonable to assume the AV section is written in this context - i.e. that the requirement to be wielding a weapon (i.e., to be able to attack with it) applies specifically to those (most common) properties that affect attacks. In short, they're explaining not a generic limitation of properties, but rather the context within which you should interpret them. If a property speaks of affecting an attack somehow, the assumption is that you are using that weapon for the attack.

The issue comes up more of a person holding four wands in one hand: Are they doing anything different from the implement + shield person? Should they be permitted to gain all four properties? Wield = able to attack with it (barring other conditions).

YMMV

DC
 
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eamon

Explorer
That being said, eamon, you have draw to mind differences that I had not specifically considered in my post...the able to wield while not proficient and fixed damage. I concede that weapons and implements clearly fall into different subclasses of attack / damage items.

Still, I hold that a ruling that allows a property to be gained while not actually / correctly wielding the item is not in keeping with the intent of the rules given that off hand weapons, rings, and all worn items only function when properly worn, held, applied. You can't wear rings in your ears, you can put boots on your hands, etc. and gain the benefit of said items.

[...]

The issue comes up more of a person holding four wands in one hand: Are they doing anything different from the implement + shield person? Should they be permitted to gain all four properties? Wield = able to attack with it (barring other conditions).

It certainly isn't particularly obvious or intuitive, this distinction on properties, and as you say, it may open a can of worms.

The only thing I have to add is that this isn't really a case of custserve or the FAQ over-liberally applying rules - there just aren't any rules on when properties apply. Stuff like shedding light doesn't sound like it requires you to be wielding it, particularly if it goes on to say that it sheds light until sheathed and covered. The PHB (a more appropriate rules-source) simply says properties are constantly active (or active under certain conditions). For slotted items, this is pretty clearcut; you can have only one item of each slot active at a time (and two rings), but weapons + implements are unslotted. Holy symbols can even be worn, so you could conceivably have quite the large number of them.

So, if you're holding an unslotted item with a property, but you can't use the hand you're holding the item with to attack, well, what happens to the properties?

It's just not well defined, RAW or RAI, as far as I can tell. The AV isn't the spot for new general rules, and it only mentions weapons. The FAQ is also not the sport for new general rules, but it is the spot for general clarifications, and it mentions implements. This isn't a great situation. Well, that's just all there is, AFAIK.
 

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