It's a Damn Shame about E-Tools (please read)

[Cougar]

It is a damn shame about E-Tools. I haven't seen it yet and I am withholding my judgment whether or not it is worth it. The damn shame however is the same damn shame that seems to follow 3e software like PCGen, Master Tools, and now E-Tools and probably DMs Familiar and Roleplaying Master (I just don't know about them, please don't assume I am bashing them, I am not). The damn shame is, besides ALL SOFTWARE PUBLISHED SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME HAVING BUGS, is that the people that get the software and dislike it's functionality or its interface influence people's decisions about whether or not to buy software. So far there have been a couple of very vocal people who obviously would like nothing better than to take there copy of E-Tools and use a tactical nuke on it. They feel it is their duty to come to the boards (even the software developer's own boards!) and let everyone know E-Tools isn't worth the CD it is printed on. This has to be a developer/publishers worst nightmare besides being forced to release too early.

I don't have E-Tools yet. I have read the posts that say it is worthless and the posts that say they were looking forward to it but now are not going to buy it. I personally have ordered it and am still looking forward to it. Why, you ask? Because I believe it is my duty as a software consumer to buy a piece of software I am interested in and then if it fails to meet my expectations to attempt to fix it. This isn't a novel or a movie. They can (and do) go back and change things you don't like and add things you do.

If you aren't willing to post bug reports or visit the forums to see if your questions are answered please don't spout out how horrible the product is. There are plenty of people who can make up there own mind about these types of things. They can return the product just as easily as you can. At least give them the chance.


If you have the product and haven't been to the Fluid website and message boards then you are doing yourself a disservice. Here is the link:

http://www.fluidnet.com/cgi/datacgi/database.cgi?file=Forum&report=TopicIndex#Category001

Register a username and let everyone try and help everyone with their problems. The support over there has been great, both from Eric Noah, who seems to have achieved 3E god status (at least to me and some others), and the developers themselves. It might be a little slow this week due to Gen Con, but give them a chance. I know comparing E-Tools to PCGen is unfair since they are free, but PCGens GREAT community keeps them going. Some kind words, patience, and a little will go a long way to making E-Tools a great product.



Thank you very much to the developers for doing so much already to help out with everything, even before release.

And THANK YOU to Eric Noah. Man, I hope you realize that to a lot of people 3E Dungeons and Dragons would not be the same without YOU. Pretty great for someone who never wrote or published anything for 3e (unless I am mistaken, if so, my deepest apologies).

 

[Rich34]

I disagree. While I don't find posts that contain little more than the phrase "E-Tools Sucks" to be real helpful to me (as a potential purchasor of the program), I do think that people who have purchased this product should be able to come to this forum and post their opinion about it, whether that opinion is positive or negative.

 

[Cougar]

My apologies

I suppose I was a bit misleading in my post. I certainly don't want people to remain silent about their displeasure, but merely to take a look at the forums for the software before they bash it It is quite easy to see if there is an answer for their question or a fix for their problem. I also would hope that complaints like interface and coloring problems are more subdued, since that is a mere opinion which might scare off a potential user who might even like the interface or coloring.

Besides, there are some decent naysayers and then there are some rabid fanatics who don't care to have a dialogue. I may not have posted about E-Tools, but I have READ everything that has been posted about E-Tools. It would be a "Damn Shame" (maybe I should make that my sig?) if I wasted all those hours spent reading updates and posts about this and that without TRYING to make the software work. Heck, I at LEAST need to give it the amount of time I gave PCGen to get working to my satisfaction, which was considerable.

It is their right and I guess it doesn't really matter as long as I get my E-Tools and the community that wants it has their E-Tools and we all support each other and get everything entered in that we need. I am personally looking forward to Kalamar stuff being entered. I just feel sorry for the guys at Fluid, but I DO NOT feel sorry for WotC. This is their screw up. They should be hearing the rants, not Fluid.

But what am I going to do, besides fade away and post constructively, which this is certainly NOT?!

 

[mattcolville]

I have mixed feelings about ETools.

It does a lot. But there are a lot of wierd things they left out which *really* make me wonder "what the hell have they been doing?" Paladins, as far as I can tell, don't have gods. You can randomly generate an NPC. . .except he's not random, he's taken from the NPC Charts in the DMG.

A lot of people have found what I would consider embarrassing problems. But I haven't actually *done* those things and a lot of them I'm not likely to do. So I'm using it, and will probably keep using it until I run into a lot of bugs. It'd be nice if there was a flurry of updates over the next couple of weeks.

 

[Abdul Al Hazrad]

Well, I did go to the Fluid boards, and I admit they did help me out on one or two small things. But much of what I learned was that all of the things I currently hate about this program are real problems, not bugs or oversights on my part.

using the program now for two days, and fiddley farting around with every little menu to get things to come out right, I can attest that this is just plain garbage.

So, what's to be done? Well, first, Fluid should fix things -- clean up the bugs, make the interface more user-friendly, and for Pete's sake ADD TEMPLATES! Second, Fluid or the fans should definitely get on the stick about adding features, classes, feats, etc. Finally, I hope that Wizards seriously considers going back to the drawing board with this whoe concept and tryng to do it right again.

I'm having nightmares about the 2nd Edition Core Rules program.

 

[Ghostwind]

For those who are disappointed with e-Tools, I do offer this one glimmer of hope. Since the database is founded in MSAccess, it's only a matter of time before the more inventive programmers who are fans of D&D start customizing and posting their own personal patches to the web. Those who used Core Rules extensively will probably remember all of the available files that were floating around on the net. e-Tools is less than a week old and I am certain you will see your share of official patches forthcoming fairly soon. Just be a little patient.

I agree with some of what has been said about certain individuals rabidly flaming the program over its bugs or what it won't do. I also noticed that many of those who are screaming loudest are computer programmers. So the questions arises, "Why don't you go into the program and make the fixes yourself?" Afterall, if you buy a sourcebook for use in your homebrew campaign, do you not alter the material to fit your specific world? This really isn't all that different (including the cost of the product). Both require time and effort. The end result boils down to how much time you're willing to spend on that effort.

So while you may or may not like the program as it stands now and it is more than acceptable to voice your opinion, why not use constructive criticism rather than flaming negativity when saying your piece? And if you possess the ability to fix it, then why not do so? That gives you an advantage over those of us who are not programmers and rely on official patches or finding ways around a problem.

Just my 2cp worth for the day...

 

[vic20]

So the questions arises, "Why don't you go into the program and make the fixes yourself?" Afterall, if you buy a sourcebook for use in your homebrew campaign, do you not alter the material to fit your specific world? This really isn't all that different (including the cost of the product).

I can't imagine that Fluid is actually releasing the source code with the product. Without source code, one cannot go in and make fixes.

From what I've heard, it sounds like the data-layer is well-implemented. That is the most critical element, as they can release new GUIs to provide a cleaner interface over the user's data, but attempting to make changes to the structure of the data is *much* more difficult, if not impossible to do without upsetting user data.

Also- altering campaign material is in the domain of human creativity, which is something that can't be done wrong. Making adjustments to a piece of software has very little to do with creativity, and a lot to do with foresight, communication, and access to the source code.

In any case, my expectations aren't too terribly high for the product, but if I can save some time in game prep with MM-based stat-blocks, then I'll be able to put it to immediate use. It sounds like the user community has already started releasing tools to allow for data sharing, so the tool's value will actually increase in time. Or at least the potential is there.

 

[DPGDarrin]

Well, time to add my $.02.

First of all, I get very irritated when people bring their emotions to the table. Now, I'm not a robot, but if you don't like something, a simple "I'm disappointed," or "I don't recommend this," will suffice. If I read through someone panning a product, I want details and specific complaints. If they don't provide me with details, I assume they're trying to poison the well, and I ignore the post altogether.

Now, that aside, I have my copy, I've done some playing, and I'm ready to talk about it. I agree that there should be templates. I agree that this is a serious oversight, I don't know how it made it out the door without them, and I hope they are patched into the game in the near future.

Mouse overs would be nice, but the number of icons are so few that I think the program does OK without them. Multiple windows can be opened up in the program. Maybe its not as easy as it could be, but its far from impossible.

I've read a lot of complaining about the NPC generator. I agree that it should include NPC classes, but as these can be extremely varied in terms of what skills they would need to possess (expert gardenner compared to an expert stonemason for instance), it kind of makes sense why they didn't make these automatc. Also, I feel that its easier to create an NPC classed character than a standard one anyway.

Randomly generating NPCs isn't exactly random, but I actually like how it's done. You start with the "correct" NPC from the DMG (which is much closer to actual skill and feat choices a player would make when creating a PC than Jamis Buck's engine generates), and then you click on the "Jump to Character Editor" button to modify it and make it closer to what you had in mind. Its a great way of making not quite stock NPC's. If I really need a completely random character with no thought behind its construction at all, I'll visit Jamis's generators. On a separate topic for just a moment, while I like the initiative Jamis showed in creating the random PC generator, I had to modify the heck out of just about everything it produced to get something I could use.

The parts that I really like about E-tools are: its stability, the ease involved in creating new monsters, the painless stat block output, and treasure generating.

I do wish that it had more support for prestige classes built in, and I do wish that you could randomly generate characters with prestige classes. Overall, my final grade is a B. It does everything they advertised it would do, and it is useful both in-game and in the design process. Its interface and its presentation lack the initial wow factor (they could have at least given us a Bink video at the beginning), but it is very utilitarian.

Finally, I hear lots of griping, which surprises me not a bit, but I would challenge these same people to look at Jamis Bucks generators or PCGen with an equally critical eye. I know I have, and I find those programs deficient in numerous other areas, though they are incredible offerings because they are online and free. My advice - use whichever program that doesn't have a limitation pertaining to your immediate needs. There are only a few instances where I would prefer to use PCGen over E-tools, but there are some.

 

[Wormwood]

Finally, I hear lots of griping, which surprises me not a bit, but I would challenge these same people to look at Jamis Bucks generators or PCGen with an equally critical eye. I know I have, and I find those programs deficient in numerous other areas, though they are incredible offerings because they are online and free.

Perhaps the reason we're holding eTools to a higher standard is because they had the audacity to charge $30 for it.

If eTools was freeware, I'd probably love it.

 

[DPGDarrin]

Perhaps the reason we're holding eTools to a higher standard is because they had the audacity to charge $30 for it.

If eTools was freeware, I'd probably love it.

Not that I totally disagree with you, but $30 is cheap for a software program. In fact, with this program we are effectively getting 95% of the functionality of the 3 core rulebooks for the same price as 1 of them. My personal opinion is that the old Core Rule 2.0 and expansion gave too much away (all the core books in word format, along with many of the support products) for too cheap a price.

Of course I do realize that a person can get the D20 system for about $5. All they need is the issue of Poyhedron where they reprinted the advancement tables, a connection to the internet so that they can download the SRD, and a lot of paper to print it up on.