It's Dark Sun

[Nai_Calus]

You'd make a lousy copywriter too, K_M.

Any time anything begins with going on about 'tired old fantasy cliches', I do the following things:

1. Stop reading
2. Figure the writers have no idea what they're doing because they feel the need to start with an attack rather than with why what they're trying to sell is supposedly so awesome
3. Frequently remove whatever it is from all further consideration, because I find traditional fantasy to be neither tired nor old, enjoy it quite a lot, and find that whatever it is that's smashing those tired old cliches frequently does so in a manner that is itself incredibly cliche(How many times have I heard 'I hate traditional elves, so mine are all feral and brutal'?) and also a turn-off to me.

Which, yes, we've already established that for reasons that include #3 above, I hate Dark Sun and consider it the pinnacle of 'fantasy things I hate'(Man Arrakis is a less place to live than Athas). But it applies in general to things I'm not familiar with as well. I had no idea what Dark Sun was at one point, for that matter. It was introduced in threads as basically the 'smashing tired old cliches' thing, which immediately put me on my guard, and learning what the setting was actually about just confirmed it.

Number 2, though, is somewhat indicative of exactly what they need to not do to market it. There are people who like both 'tired old cliches' *and* 'this is different!' who would be put off by bashing of the one thing they like in an attempt to sell them something else they like.

Planescape, which I do like, and which isn't as cliche as most people make it out to, I came across mentioned as a setting where one might find 'demons and angels sitting in a bar in Sigil talking about things over a mug of ale'. This is different, kills the standard operating procedure, but doesn't go on about how much a setting where this would never, ever happen is tired and old and cliched.

(Though I often think that the fans of a setting/game system/anything are often its worst enemy. Asking Eberron fans what there is in Eberron for someone who likes traditional fantasy once got me some snotty nasty replies that just served to put me off the setting further out of not wanting to ever associate with people like that. It's like why I read FR novels but you'd have a hell of a time getting me to actually play FR. Canon lawyers, fanboys, those who cry that you're doing it wrong and stupid for not loving something as much as they do. All these things are bad for what they're trying to support.)

 

[TheWyrd]

A while back, someone suggested the idea of a planeless world where in all of the planes more or less existed geographically only. So the feywild was when you found yourself in a particularly dark primordial forest, the shadowfell was when you hit that dark graveyard around midnight, the astral sea is where you ended up if you flew too high and when you go down through the underdark far enough, you'll eventually hit the elemental chaos. There are 'shortcuts' that summoners can take when calling creatures to aid them but there is just one world.

This might be an interesting take for DarkSun.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I hate Dark Sun and consider it the pinnacle of 'fantasy things I hate'

And that's totally fine. Dark Sun, I take it, isn't for you. It doesn't have to be. You've got two perfectly good settings already, more on the way, and can homebrew to your hearts' content! FR wasn't for everybody (4e FR, I'm sure some would argue, was specifically NOT for FR fans ), Eberron isn't for everybody (Not everyone loves magitek and advanced technology in their fantasy!), and Planescape isn't for everybody (people who have an issue with alignment might not appreciate PS's nuanced take on metaphysics).

For Dark Sun, it's difference is part of it's appeal. It isn't traditional fantasy. That's part of what makes it awesome in my eyes.

And you can probably still yank parts of it, I'm sure. I mean, half-giants are pretty easily portable, so are many of the monsters, and even individual locations like Tyr or villainous Defilers might be interesting out-of-context in your own setting (perhaps the PC's can thwart the apocalypse before it happens!). Even if you don't like psionics, maybe you like the idea of elemental druids? Sure. Run with that. If all you want to do is dismantle it and port it into your world piece-by-piece, that should be fine and encouraged.

But I think it's safe to say that Dark Sun's violation of traditional fantasy is very appealing to a lot of people, and allowing them to play in Dark Sun (and not in some 4e-style pseudo-Dark Sun with all the newest fads added on in some misguided pursuit of compatability) is going to be the main value here.

DS is not going to appeal to traditionalists, even if the copy on the back of the book says so. Best bet is to sell it to the nontraditionalists, since not everyone is a fan of bog-standard fantasy.

(and I am, but I also get bored of settings rather quickly)

 

[DM_Fiery_Fist]

I am really optimistic about the new setting. I think this is an opportunity for Wizards to build upon some of the creativity we saw from TSR during second edition (Dark Sun and Planescape are two fantastic examples) and to distance themselves somewhat from the MMORPG market. I will certainly be buying the fourth edition rulebooks after this.

 

[Jack99]

I must admit that I am going to throw my hat in with KM here. Dark Sun should be different from the rest - FR was straight by the book (read core), Eberron sligthly less so (different gods, slightly altered cosmology), so here is the chance to do something completely different that can truely blow our minds.I really liked 4e Eberron Campaign Guide as a book and as a setting, but it is still too much like what I can make myself.

No more vanilla, I want Orange!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I suppose DS will work quite well with most of 4e default assupmtions. It will be timed perfectly with psionic classes (And with this setting in mind, the monk as a psionic class work even better). Feywild and Shadowfell as alternate worlds are possible but not necessary.

I wonder what the default array for DS in 4e is... probably a bit higher...

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Yeah I am also throwing my hat in with KM. I want to see Dark Sun to really showcase how different it is, and hopefully become a standard for future settings, that each push their field of fantasy.

That won't stop me from going, "hmm... what if" for fun though

 

[vagabundo]

It looks like I'm in for the PH3 and all the dark sun stuff. I'd better start saving now.

 

[Nai_Calus]

Right, Dark Sun should stay just the way it is, lest we have a repeat of the godawfulness that was 4e FR. (Which is fit only to swipe the Swordmage class, Drow and Genasi from and not for using at all.) (Besides, if any kind of decent astral realm existed in the astral sea were it included, I can see a lot of characters saying screw it to the world and just settling down, heh. Not what the setting needs if it's going to keep its feel.)

But the difference can be marketed without pooh-poohing traditional fantasy in the ad copy, is what I'm saying, or in the forum posting.

It's the 'traditional fantasy sucks and is boring, give me something different!' angle that annoys me. I might be otherwise irked that they're releasing two settings in a row I don't like, but I can deal with that and shrug it off.

It's the 'if you don't like it what's wrong with you' and the 'traditional fantasy is a tired old cliche' that I see so often that really puts me off. It's a knee-jerk reaction. I probably would have been wary about Planescape if someone had gone on about how it was awesome because it was different than boring old lame trad. fantasy.

Saying it's different is enough.

 

[Danzauker]

This is for me the greatest announcement since 4e PHB1.

Almost EVERYTHING the designers are saying they will do, is exactly wat I wanted for Dark Sun.

Reboot to pre-Free Tyr timeline? That's a dream come true!

I'm also very impressed by the different approaches they are taking in reissuing the settings. Different problems need different solutions,after all.

The Realms are a setting where almost everything has been said and done. It's been pratically alive through the previous 2 editions. The only pratical way to adapt it to 4ed, eqpecially if you want it to be a sort of "default" setting, is a good time shift. Think it as the Forgotten Realms: The Next Generation approach.

Ebeeron is another matter entirely. It's possibilities have just begun to be explored. Plus, it sort of was the "playground" for the developing of 4e, so transition is so easy that basically needs to shoehorn a little the new classes and races, and convert it's peculiarities to be ready to go.

Dark Sun, on the other way, has been out of print for all of 3ed. I'd not be surprised if it was a sort of urban legend for 3ed newcomers. Something everyone has heard from older gamers, but few ever actually saw or played. It's potential, expecially the initial implied setting, is still there. In this case, the remake approach, is fully justified.

I would not mind if the designers tried to shoehorn some of the new races and classes in the setting, as long as they keep the basic assumptions there (sorcerer-kings, desert land, veiled alliance, no gods, warped races etc.).

I hope they keep the remake approach for other classic settings, too, such as Spelljammer or, who knows Mystara.