It's No Longer A Joke

[Lanefan]

My question is will anyone want to see a revised Beyond Level One for sub-heroic play. All those extra hit points must come from somewhere.

Levels -9 to 0: Common Beginnings ....

Yes, count me in for that one; and that's where I'd start the game were I to ever run 4e. (probably add 10 to all the level numbers to make things parse a bit better for the players...)

As for 1e going beyond the levels on the tables: it's pretty easy to figure out the progression on the tables and just extrapolate from there and keep going, for the most part. I've had to do this not for PCs, but for the occasional ridiculous-level opponent they ran up against; worst case I can think of was trying to figure out all the weapon-spec. bonuses and attacks-per-round etc. for a 25th-level two-weapon Fighter (who was also a divine minion), where the weapon spec. tables don't go anywhere near that high.

One house-rule I brought in for my last campaign is that past-name-level characters who would by RAW just get a fixed amount of h.p. per level (3, for a Fighter) instead rolled a die of half the size they had before (so for Fighter, a d5). In every case except Cleric and Ranger, the average of this roll is the same as the fixed number they'd get anyway. And of course they'd get their Con. bonus, assuming they still had a Con bonus by then.

For my current campaign, 9 sessions in and level 2 still not visible with binoculars, I'm not too worried about any of this quite yet.

Lanefan

 

[Henry]

The two things that dissuade WotC from making over 30 a regularly supported style of play is: (1) the math, and (2) the lack of strong audience support.

Fact is, the reason they spaced out bonus progression as much as they have (basically giving everyone the +1/2 levels progression) is because of the whole "sweet spot" thing. Keep going too far outside of level 20 and you get back into "Sweet spot" arguments again, where the plus to the die is so much more all-important than what roll is ON the die. You can shove characters into the stratosphere, but it again becomes more about tacticians who can stack their bonuses effectively than about the Average Gamer making a character who is fun but not totally optimized.

So, they'll likely have some kind of over-30 level support, but it'll probably be limited at best, unless someone hits on a good strategy. As it is, the very carrot (level gain) on the end of the stick (game play) is what will eventually overfeed the horse and kill it.

 

[Voadam]

Each and every campaign I ever played in.

We'd hit about 12th level or so, 1e, 2e, Basic/Expert, didn't matter and the campaign would end. Going beyond that was just pointless. When the fighter is single handedly destroying Ancient Huge Red dragons, there just wasn't much to do beyond name level.

You got your keep, you got your followers and started over.

And, I highly, highly doubt I'm the only one who played like this.

At what point was your fighter single handedly taking out ancient huge red dragons?

 

[Henry]

At what point was your fighter single handedly taking out ancient huge red dragons?

According to an article in an early Dragon Magazine, about level 6 or so.
Somebody realized early on that the whole "% chance asleep" thing was a really stupid idea!

I dunno about single-handed, but a party could theoretically manage it by level 4 or 5 or so. Couple of fighters, decked out with Druidic Protection from Fire spells in 1e (the druid gets those at level 3, and he himself gets a freaking damage buffer!), and a rogue with a x3 backstab can take an 88 hit point dragon from healthy to zero in just two or three rounds. They'd lose a couple of people, but in the end there'd be a dead dragon and a horde to pick through. It's where the first inklings of B.A.D.D. (Bothered about Disposable Dragons) started to take shape in the AD&D community.

 

[RigaMortus2]

From the Epic Destinies article:


Yes, that's correct. As of the release of 4E, it will actually be possible to win D&D...

This is a case where 4E actually diverges from MMOs

 

[FourthBear]

At what point was your fighter single handedly taking out ancient huge red dragons?

Actually, in 1e, dragons really weren't all that tough. A high level fighter with good magical equipment probably could take out a ancient huge red dragon single-handedly. Heck, he could probably make use of those dragon subdual tables and have himself a nice dedicated mount as well.

 

[Clavis]

Actually, in 1e, dragons really weren't all that tough. A high level fighter with good magical equipment probably could take out a ancient huge red dragon single-handedly. Heck, he could probably make use of those dragon subdual tables and have himself a nice dedicated mount as well.

And Gygax did that on purpose, to simulate all the European folktales where a single knight slays a dragon. Gary never intended Dragons to be the most powerful opponents in the game.

 

[jdrakeh]

Yes, that's correct. As of the release of 4E, it will actually be possible to win D&D...

This has been possible since the days of BECMI, whereupomn obtaining Level 30, a character could become an Immortal (assuming some tests were passed). Basically, though, BECMI codified Level 30 as the defined exit point from the mortal realm for PCs. It was the original "win" in D&D. 4e has nothing on that from what I've seen

 

[Mercule]

At what point was your fighter single handedly taking out ancient huge red dragons?

I'll grant that dragging UA into the mix may be suspect, but....

I once saw an 8th level barbarian take out an ancient red in one hit. The dragon flew just within range of his throwing axe and he chucked it. Did the requisite 1/3 hp to cause a creature with membranous wings to fall out of the sky and the dragon took falling damage sufficient to kill it. I believe there were girdles/gauntlets involved as well as the increased falling damage from Wilderness Survival Guide and probably a couple other factors. Still, it was pretty scary.

 

[cferejohn]

You're dead. Game over.

Don't you mean: you're dead, so you reform as an insubstantial cloud of wizardy goodness? Or whatever your epic power that says "once a day, when you die" says?