I've done it, my very first TPK...

[shadoe]

They realy should have looked at there equipment lists to choose the best option during the fight as well(especially the spell casters while waiting on the fighter types to finish there attacks, or while the dragon was trying to fleece them).

 

[the Jester]

Congrats on your first tpk and on having a group good enough to take it in stride!

In my opinion, a tpk makes future games better because the pcs know they don't get free rides.

 

[Dark Dragon]

A dragon on an open battle field mostly doesn't fit into the CR system. As already mentioned, he has more options to move (3D, most PCs only can move in 2D), a nasty breath weapon and quite high physical strength. Give him some good melee feats (Snatch, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Improved Critical (claw or bite)) and perhaps one or two manouver feats (Wingover, Hover, Improved Flight) and you have a real killer. When a dragon can cast spells, your party may be screwed...when he can cast Antimagic Field (and fits into the field), a party of level 20 or higher is wiped out by a CR 20 old Red Dragon in most cases: It casts Antimagic Field prior to combat, attacks a spellcaster with Flyby and Snatch, tears him into pieces, attacks the next PC...

Fighting a dragon is never as easy as it seems, and when the party isn't fighting as a team, it will be TPKed in most cases.

I'd say the TPK wasn't your fault. The players may have learned something about dragons and are more careful the next time. Negotiation is sometimes better than fighting (my group has made that experience last session: Two times we were able to force a very old Red Dragon to retreat, but the third encounter nearly resulted in a TPK due to bad tactics: Three PCs dead, three alive. The dragon made one offer: Our equipment for our lives. We accepted and could leave. Now the group is planning revenge).

 

[Rel]

On the one hand, every encounter with a dragon that I've ever run has been one that the players were worried about. Those that resulted in mere talking have had the PC's being very polite and obsequious. Those that resulted in combat were all nail-biters that could have gone either way and have sometimes resulted in PC deaths. And I like it that way. It keeps a certain mystique around dragons.

On the other hand, I don't usually advocate for using dragons as a random encounter either. I'm not saying it is unrealistic (after all, those dragons must leave their caves to go hunting sometime) but more that I just like the players, and myself, to get to savor the tension leading up to a dragon encounter.

But I think that you did just fine. I'm a big fan of "letting the chips fall where they may". I think that it gives the players' victories more zest when they know they accomplished them on their own. Kudos to your group for having a good attitude about it.

 

[northrundicandus]

On the other hand, I don't usually advocate for using dragons as a random encounter either.

Random encounters are a good test of DM skill. I've had campaigns take on all new directions thanks to me having to figure out why a certain creature was in a certain place due to a random roll. I think they add a lot to a game.

You can also go nuts with them and your games end up going nowhere.

 

[derelictjay]

You did nothing wrong. Killing the party happens, I've had a grand total of three TPKs, and uncounted numbers of near TPKs. Your players made the mistakes, not using items that could have helped in the encounter (the wand of icestorm and probably others as well), and when they were being toasted (literally, it seems) they could probably have offered up some form of surrender (ie give up the goods), plus many more solutions were left to them, that they didn't do. THe fact that it was a random encounter doesn't make you the villian (the dragon was, but thats not your fault), it'll teach the players to be a little bit more wary of a dragon-shaped shadow crossing over them when their traveling between adventures. Tell them to roll up some more characters and get the show back on the road.

 

[wingsandsword]

IIRC, in 3.0 at least, the Dragon CR's are written with the idea that the party knows the type of dragon they're going to be facing in advance, is well prepared, and will probably be dealing with them in their lair. The CR's aren't calibrated for random encounters in the field, they should be significantly higher otherwise.

It did sound like your players used bad tactics, were they novice players, or just having a really bad night?

 

[Philip]

Ok, so I've really done it now. I TPK-ed my party. Or they TPK-ed themselves, depending on how you look at it.

Party: Human Rogue 6, Human Ranger 7 (with Dire Wolf), Elf wiz3/clr3/mth2, Human Rog1/Clr7

Encounter: One young red dragon (supposedly CR6) on a open area in the foothills of the biggest mountain range of my continent.

I think you did good to handle it that way, at least, if everybody had fun. If you didn't and the players suspect you might be holding back to spare them, they might become lax in their tactics, expecting you to pull them out of the fire.

About the opponent: they promoted the Red Dragon from CR6 in 3.0 to CR7 in 3.5. The circumstances favored the Dragon, say +1 CR adjustment. CR 8 should be somewhat dangerous but do-able for a standard party.

I think it is a combination of sub-optimal tactics and having a non-standard party with no heavy hitters. The party doesn't seem to have a tank, and has no artillery as well. This party seems very versatile, but is probably lacking a real 'punch'. CR's presuppose a standard party, and if a party deviates from the standard in some manner, you should adjust encounters accordingly.

We have had some problems with non-standard parties as well. It had a 10th lvl fighter (swashbuckler type without Power Attack) as primary fighter and a Monk, Rogue and Cleric for combat support. None of them was capable of doing getting more than 1 or 2 points of damage past the DR 10/-, because 12 points was just their maximum possible melee damage output. Fortunately my Paladin/Sorcerer had a full complement of spells so we spent 8+ rounds just fireballing the thing over and over until it dropped.

The dragon encounter was probably do-able, but only with optimal tactics.

 

[Felix]

Open ground, advantage of movement, breath weapon, spells. I'd say that means the dragon is going to win. There is one thing that I suggest you look to correcting in the future:

Dragons have a lot to live for, especially the younger ones. Dragons live for so long that they must be careful about what fights they get into, and how long they stay in them. Any time I run a dragon against the party, as soon as he hits 50% hit points, he leaves... it's just not worth it to him to stick around and maybe get some loot. It's like the old saying about fighter pilots: There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.

The only time I would allow a dragon to fight to the death would be when it's cornered with no escape or it's a female protecting its eggs. Even if there is the possibility of its horde being taken over, it is too easy for a dragon to think: "I will let them think they've won now, and when they are complacent I will return, kill them, and reclaim my property, as well as theirs." Dragons should never, ever allow themselves to get killed. They're too smart.

That being said, here's a website you might like to look at to make dragons even more ferocious:
B.A.D.D.
This is Bothered About Disposable Dragons, and gives tips on how to make your dragons worthy of the name of the game.

Have fun, and make sure your mystic thurege knows what the heck red dragons are immune to. Heh heh.