I've Whetted My Dice With Blood

[billd91]

My other question is, what do I write back to the player? I'm afraid he's going to make a chaotic neutral party disrupter in an attempt to make up for lost opportunity. I'm also afraid he's going to go after other party members for their comments. He's generally a pretty nice guy, but I think he's just frustrated with the game and looking to inject some fun for himself anyway he can. I don't like the idea of intraparty conflict due to this incident. That's not the game I'm trying to run. While a little could be interesting if it were for purely character reasons, this may end up as a way to avenge insults to the dead Dante.

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about his intentions yet. I don't think I'd even ask him about them. Give him the benefit of the doubt until you have a smoking gun. I generally think it's better to clean up problems once they happen rather than imply that you don't trust the player to be adult about it.
But I would ask him what he means about getting the campaign moving along. That says that he doesn't like your pacing of the game in some way. Find out what's bothering him and ask other players about how they feel. It might be that he is truly the odd man out compared to the rest or that others have some of the same feelings. Once you have an idea how others feel, adjust accordingly. You may find that giving the players that want some faster pacing a little more to do (play up on their skills, prep some additional stuff before the session and hand them out to the faster-paced players, etc) may help them feel busy enough that they aren't as bored.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

I've done it. I've killed my first PC. And now I need some help dealing with the unforeseen consequences.

....

One fellow joined a few weeks later with a mage character called Dante, an interesting character who mostly buffed himself up and would enter combat with his bastard sword. Here is his tale of death.

....

I've been playing with this guy for three years and this is the first really major problem I've had. I've been DMing him in this game for about three months, and this is the only PC death we've had so far. The atmosphere at the end of the session was decidedly gloomy and depressed, not the upbeat, laughing way we usually end. I don't want to DM or play if things are going to be this tense. I play and DM this game as a way to relieve tension, not to cause it. What suggestions do you have so I can clear the air both in and out of the game? Thanks for listening.

I'm with Buttercup. Can I join your game?

Excellent imagery and world design. Loved the descriptions of the NPCs and their haunts and motivations. Well done.

Oh wait, you had a question.

You did fine. This reminds me of the death of my friend JT's paladin in my game. He turned down help from his fellow party members when they all had finished off their evil doubles but he hadn't. Same deal. Wouldn't tell me his hit points either. He was a DM too.

The point of relating the above is that 18 years later, my friend JT finally admitted to us all that he regretted that decision. So your friend will learn from this. Just not right away. It sounds like he's got some Real Life going on to with it getting close to the holidays and the end of school.

You're questioning your own actions when in fact you shouldn't. So, everyone else had lots of good advice about how to clear the air. Maybe the guy needs a bit of a break?

Good luck.

 

[Steverooo]

Hmmm! I guess I'm going against the grain of "public opinion" on this board, but oh well... What else isn't new?

It sounds to me like your player isn't a trouble maker, he's just plain bored. He wanted his character to die so that he could have a new one. Probably, he wants a new one to "move the party along to get to the good stuff". When a player says that, he usually means combat...

We know he played a mage who mostly buffed himself and entered into combat. We know that he was bored by talk, talk, talk. We know that his new player will be CN...

I can pretty much tell you what he'll do, I think... He'll take off, and go do whatever he pleases, without waiting to see what the rest of the party will do. He'll run off, solo, and start the fight, to "get things moving". Diplomacy is not for him. NPC interactions are not for him. Combat is adventure, and he wants to go adventuring!

Look at his Ex-PC's spell books... Am I right? mostly all combat spells?

This player may or may not fit into your group, depending upon what the rest like. If he stays, you may need to have more combats with weaker opponents in order to keep him interested. Heroic holding-actions where the lone Barbarian staves off the hordes of Orc assaulting the doorway, so that the Wizard can open the Gate for the party's escape, sound more like his cup o' brew, to me. Y'might as well brew him a whole pot!

Although I'm not the combat-oriented type, I HAVE been on the other end of this problem, twice! The first time, our "party" was told that we joined together along the road for "safety in numbers", a fog rolled in while we camped, and in the morning, we were elsewhere. Searches, tracking, etc., revealed little, except two maps: one was quickly revealed to be the local area, another a map of a town shown on the first. So we headed there.

Along the way, my PC was trying to make sense of signs in the sun, moon, and stars, and questioning an NPC revealed that they were the signs of a local goddess, who had a beef with another one. One had a temple nearby (and asking a farmer soon revealed that the other did, too, although it wasn't on the map). Along the way, more fog rolled in, and two more PCs showed up. The NPC priestess revealed that she'd had visions urging her to join our party, and foreseen these two, as well as another...

When we reached the crossroads, I asked the party, should we continue on to the town (a day and a half away), or check out the temple, which we'd reached shortly after nightfall. They decided to go to the temple, where, in the morning, we met the remaining PC, were told that we were "cursed", and that others didn't see what we saw in the sky, but that others had...

Now all of the information that we had, so far, had been unearthed by my restless PC, trying to make some kind of sense out of this consternation. So I asked the bovious: "What happened to these others?" All of them, save one, had died. The one? He lived in that town we were headed to... I got his name and where to find him, and told the rest I'd be waiting in the stables, when they were done with any more questions. No one else had any, so we left.

Half a day later, back at the crossroads, I asked; did we want to go to town, or to the other temple. A big arguement then ensued, but we decided to go to town. So we did...

Now at that point, I was moving (IRL), and was without a phone for about a month. So I told the GM I would be disappearing for a while, and when the gate guard charged a toll to get in, my PC objected, and told the rest he'd wait for them. One of the other PCs rode after him, name-calling, and attacked. My PC used a Feint & Hide maneuver, and rode off. The last PC to join then began bad-mouthing my PC, inside the gate. I moved, and rejoined a month later, when I got a new phone.

By then, the PCs had visited the stables & inn, ordered dinner, one PC had stayed behind (and dropped), and the rest had made it to the man's house, interviewed him, and was going to speak to the local mage. Since part of the reason we'd come to town was because we were running low on supplies, I went to the store. Meanwhile, another (unforeseen) PC knocked on the door and joined.

Leaving the man's house, the party saw me, and we joined back up. We then went to the bookstore where the mage was, to talk to him. At that point, I had many questions, and proceeded to get a lot of answers. This seemed to irritate the other PCs. Finally, the bad-mouthing one said that I was just slowing things down, so I said "Okay, I'm going to the store then". This PC then proceeded to bad mouth mine some more, saying that I wasn't there (even though I hadn't said I'd left). We finally ended up with two of us hitting the store, and the rest standing around the bookstore for a long time, doing little, and complaining about my PC leaving before they were ready (when they'd just been complaining that I was slowing things down).

So at that point, I left the other PC (who wandered back), searched the entire town for secret doors, visited the temple, got an audience with the high priest, learned that there were magical "ley lines" criss-crossing the town, and that this temple, the mage's bookstore, and the Witch's hut were all at the "nodes" where these lines crossed. On my way to the Witch's hut, I ran across a former-PC (now played by someone else) who had previously been "detained by a Dryad" (after the former player failed to show up).

Meanwhile, the rest of the party left the bookstore, and then went to the store (where I had already been long before) and got supplies.

At the Witch's, she said she was aware of all that had passed at the mage's, and did not "suffer fools gladly", so we could ask her ONE question. I asked her to promise some pretty simple things (that what she said was the truth, and that she wouldn't try to harm or enspell us). She refused to take these "great oaths", unless we swore to take her out of this place when we got out. Having learned that she was 1/2 Succubus, my PC (Ranger, Favored Enemy: Outsiders (Evil)) refused, and left. She banned my PC from her hut. The other PC swore to help free her... As we left, the rest of the party came along, heading to the same place. They all agreed, too.

Thereafter, we met, again, and the rest of the party ignored not only my PC, but also the other guy's "return", as well. They returned to the inn, while the other two of us (and NPC Priestess) went to the market, bakery, and the "cursed" NPC's house. We all got together, again, there, later that night, and (of course) they all wanted to know what I'd learned, since they'd found nothing. Since I hadn't found anything related to the quest for six or seven items the mage had told us about, I said not much...

I did say that, perhaps, the spell casters might want to co-ordinate spells before we went after the first item, in the morning, but that cooperation didn't seem to be a party byword. That one comment kicked up such a fuss that one of the other PCs (who rarely said anything) told my PC that maybe I should leave the party, as they didn't have arguements like this when my PC wasn't around!

I told him I could be as silent as a stone, if that's what they wanted, and proceeded to prove it, the next day... Meanwhile, the dropped PC had been replaced by a new player and PC. So off we went to find the first piece.

When we got to some ruins where our "Artifact Locater" told us the first piece was, my PC spoke up and said maybe we should ask the locals about this place, before barging in. The party agreed, and we quickly did, learning little more than that some young men went missing. My tracking rolls had already told me Bugbears were in these woods.

So we reconned, found a bugbear, killed eight of them, and fought off a flying goblin sorceress with a ring of improved invisibility, and a bugbear cleric. The newest PC, and the one who had objected to my saying the spellcasters should coordinate spells dropped during the fight. The NPC Priestess almost died, but the Paladin cured her. After mopping up, we prepared to go on. My friend's PC said something to the effect of "You may sometimes be sharp-tongued, my friend, but your eyes are sharper." (since I was the only one to hit the invisible goblin sorceress). This prompted the paladin's player to take a shot, which prompted the bad-mouthing PC to start up, again...

Now to the point of the whole long set-up: I asked myself "What is my PC doing with these people? Why is he here? This isn't fun! When did it stop being fun?" I thought about it... for days!... I finally decided that it had NEVER really been fun, but that I had been trying to MAKE it fun by "solving the riddle".

A that point, my PC said he was going to check on the horses, and left. Several members of the group made fun of that. I sent the GM and note, and quit the game. The GM killed off my PC, in game, the remaining PCs (one of whom had revealed that he was really a spy sent to keep tabs on us, and not really a mage - which is why he refused to coordinate spells) found the item and returned to town...

The funniest part was when the bad-mouthing PC said "Well, it's been so long, I can't remember... Where were we supposed to go next?" It seems no one else had bothered to take notes on all the answers that "the pesky elf" had asked!

==========

The second time a situation like this happened to me, it was early in the first game session. One PC said two of us were slowing the game down by "worrying" about whether or not we had enough supplies for our trek through the desert. He wanted to hurry up and "get to the good stuff". Having learned my lesson the last time, I quit the game right there... He was probably a spy, too!

---------------

So I guess the moral of the story is, the same game that irritates your "problem PC" may be just what the rest like. Not all gamers are compatible...

Best of luck, with yours!

 

[Umbran]

Hm. I'll go against the grain aqnd note a small technical failing in how you handled the situation - there should not have been a surprise round. Surprise is for when one combatant is unaware of the enemy. In this case Dante was already face to face with Immo, and knows Immo is angry. Chain Lightning has V,S, and F components, so Dante sees Immo reach for his spell component pouch before casting. I don't htink Dante should have been surprised, and that might have changed the way the combat went.

That, however, is a moot point, and not connected with the central issues you seem to be facing. Youre real problem seems to be a bored/frustrated player. There are a few keys to dealing with such, many of which have already been mentioned.

1)A bit of time. Frequently, when someone is angry or frustrated, dealing with the situation right away is difficult. That's the stage where you're likely to make decisions without thinking, (like taking a CN character so you can run around and do whatever the heck you want as if that has no consequences, as if doing whatever he wanted didn't already get him in trouble). YOu may have to wait until he cools down a bit, and wil listen to reason.

2)Some negotiation - communication is always key. First, you'll have to make him aware that you're not going to let in a character who is deliberately designed to be disruptive. Then, ask him what he wants out of the game. As others have already noted, he probably wants more action/adventure than talking. Then, see if you can give him what he wants without ruining it for everyone else. Make a good faith effort to satisfy him along with everyone else.

3)Walk into the whole thing recognizing that you can't be all things to all people. While it is always good to try to flex a bit to keep a game and party together, not all games are for all people.

 

[ciaran00]

You know, no matter how you do it if players like their characters, a character death tends to be somewhat of a downer for a game.

Of my two players, one.. a defiler... inadvertantly insulted a representative of an outer power (something about being a dog that someone else kicks around). The said representative unleashed his t'liz on the character and he was subsequently killed through combat, and his gear was stripped with all items particularly offending to the representative destroyed. The player knew what he had done (after all the two had sought this guy out on their own... someone with whom they've had a volatile relationship), there was some argument... but the whole affair was a downer. I know for a fact that my players enjoy the game, but we ate in relative silence at In & Out after the game. So, I don't think that the player feeling bad or angry is specifically your fault as a DM.

One bit that seems a bit contrived is the Immoth's knowledge of the scroll being missing. If he does have an extensive library, wouldn't he have many scrolls lying about? Maybe this scroll was the focal point of interest......? Also, wouldn't the Immoth kill him if he found the scroll on him?

ciaran

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I think you did fine. Here's a question: you said the player is also a DM; does he get to play very often? The reason I ask is that it sounds like he's not used to losing characters as a player. In addition, I used to DM almost exclusively, and the few times I got play, my attention would wander a bit when the action shifted to other PCs. I believe this is because, as a DM, I always had to focus my attention, and was always "on." Take a DM out of his element, and take away much of the attention he's used to, and you can see why he might get bored more easily than players who don't DM often or at all.

By the way, I'd suggest a new House Rule for you: players should have to let you know current hit points each combat round if they lose any. An across-the-board rule like that would keep them from knowing when you were going to fudge - and prevent any temptation for players to, umm, fudge things on their own. Not that any player would do so...

 

[ThoughtBubble]

I have a couple of questions for you. How did Immo know the scroll was missing? Did Dante get a bluff check to assure the wizard that he didn't have it (say, when he turned out his pockets). That seemed kind of strange to me, like the wizard abruptly noticed the theft of a random scroll, and was 100% convinced Dante took it. Yet this happened without a single roll taking place, and without giving Dante a chance. If I was Dante's player, and everything above didn't get rolled, I could easily imagine that the DM was screwing me over.

And truth be told, every DM does that from time to time. There have been times when I forgot diplomacy rolls, or UMD rolls and simply went with what made sense to me at the time. Usually, it worked out ok. There was one circumstance where the fighter snuck in the back of a brothel fully armed and armored, after being involved in threatining the owner. He 'sneaks' from room to room until he runs into one of the girls, then in a loud and somewhat panicky manner asks them about an NPC's location. NPC replies something along the lines of "Please don't hurt me." The PC walks forward and repeats the question. NPC screams, hell breaks loose.

Somewhere in there, I should have made a diplomacy roll. Sure, it likely wouldn't have changed anything with our fighter's mass 0 ranks in it, but there was still a chance that way.

As far as the "I don't care about my stats, but I'm playing CN" portion, that's where the red flags go up. Give him a couple of days, then talk with him. Though I've found that I don't particularly like CN characters at all. I'd reply with "Sorry, I'm not really feeling up to DMing a CN character at the moment. Though, from your comments, it sounds like there's some things I could do to improve pacing. Would you care to share?"

As far as being the odd man out, as a DM and occasional player, I have been the odd man out in each of the two games I've gotten to be in. And at this point, I am still fully convinced that it was those games that had problems, not me. Ok, so in actuality, I was taking myself too seriously in each game and getting upset, I couldn't find out from the DM's what the focus of the game was on and spent time looking at/for the wrong things, I put a lot more effort into the act of playing than my fellow players did, and at least two members of the party in either game suffered from inertial barriers (could not get around to doing anything). Make sure that everyone's on the same page.

I remember one situation, that looking back on it, makes me laugh.
Me: "I feel like none of my skills are of any use at all."
DM: "What do you mean? You found a car, didn't you?"
Me: "Yeah, but we havn't had to make a single driving related roll yet, I havn't gotten a chance to fix anything, I don't have supplies to bandage people, and despite 70 points in outdoorsman I can't tell how far we've walked, in what direction, or where base camp is."
DM: "You know, I didn't think outdoorsman would cover that. That's a good point."

And to think, if I'd said something earlier, we might have been able to find camp.

Anyway, I'd encourage having some dialogs with the players in your game. Find out if they like the pacing, and if they have any problems. Really find out. It's kind of a pain, but sometimes you need to push past the "Sure, everything's great" area to get any helpful answers. Listen to Dante's player, he may have a few valid observations, but don't ruin something that's working just for him.

Yeah... It's late and I'm rambling. So, to sum up: Communicate, keep doing the best you can, and if he doesn't like it, or doesn't want to cooperate, then perhaps it's best that he find something more fun to do with his time.

 

[Cavalorn]

I've done it. I've killed my first PC.

Worth remembering:

DMs don't kill PCs. Monsters (and NPCs and traps and so on) kill PCs.

You applied the rules as best you were able and played an NPC in a consistent way. Personally, I'd have gone for a Bluff / Sense Motive between Dante and Immo at the point when Dante claimed not to have the scroll, as if Dante had guilt written all over his face and Immo had seen right through him, it would have made the ensuing zap-fest more of an obvious consequence. Dante's player would have been able to think 'Busted' and deal with the consequences.

Surprise rounds are, as has been pointed out, for when one side is unaware of the other. When you've got two sides facing each other down, you really want to go straight to initiative. Even so, this isn't really a rules issue, it's more about how the player sees himself in the context of the game. It sounds like he just wanted some 'action' of the kind that the other players didn't.

When he overestimates our characters' abilities, he will often ask us our hit points to give us one round to stabilize a friend instead of killing us outright.

Whoa. Now that is bad DMing, in my book, if only because it's so horribly unsubtle.

I asked for Dante's hit points when I realized what was going to happen and he refused to tell me. Twice.

You can't afford to have an attack of conscience at a time like that. It's not your fault that this happened. Dante provoked it and knew exactly what he was doing. There's even an element of 'Go on, kill me, I dare you.' When a player refuses to tell you his stats, then that's a sign that the real conflict is between DM and player.

I suggest that you don't emulate his habits of asking people what their hit points are. That basically says 'I could kill you if I wanted to, but I'm going to make sure I don't, and I want you to know this.' The time to assess an encounter is *before* the PCs enter it, not when they're in the thick of things.

 

[Epametheus]

Hmm. Congrats?

Sounds like you have a combat-oriented player in a RP game.

My own inclination is that if a PC does something suicidal, I might as well oblidge the PC by killing him or her. Dante did something reckless and paid for it.

I'm much more inclined to be merciful if the PCs are simply getting screwed by dumb luck, though.

 

[Si_RW]

i live by these rules when it comes to being a dm don't pull punches and don't kill the whole party. this don't kill the whole party just happened to me i wasn't the dm but the second day of play the dm slaughtered all of use. not just killed but slaughtered, within 6 rounds everyone was dead or down. this should not be done but remember the dm can always bluff a few rolls to put the pcs back on top.