D&D 4E JamesonCourage's First 4e Session

[Scrivener of Doom]

(snip) You can do some cool things with 4e Skill Challenges.

I think one of the best things to have come out of these recent positive 4E threads is just how good a well-run, creative skill challenge can be with the corollary that there is far more than one way to run a skill challenge.

 

[Balesir]

I think one of the best things to have come out of these recent positive 4E threads is just how good a well-run, creative skill challenge can be with the corollary that there is far more than one way to run a skill challenge.

If there is one aspect of D&D that I really, really wish had been expanded in 4E before its conclusion, it is the handling of social and "exploration" (in which I include the sort of thing in the OP) challenges. Not only techniques for Skill Challenges, but systems for adding time sequencing ("turns"), active opposition, power effects, supplementary activities (sort of analogous to "Minor Actions") and systems for PC "defensive" activity in such situations. What has been done with Skill Challenges shows the scope for adding some structure and process around these situations; to have professional designers focus energy on developing thoughts and processes for that could have yielded something revolutionary, I think. It has to stand as a missed opportunity, in my book.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I think one of the best things to have come out of these recent positive 4E threads is just how good a well-run, creative skill challenge can be with the corollary that there is far more than one way to run a skill challenge.

Oh, definitely. There are lots of ways to do it, as shown in [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s Skill Challenge Depot thread. So many different takes, so much potential fun to be had. Even the two in my session were very different (pretty scripted for the first versus pretty open-ended in the second). I'm trying to play to 4e's strong points, and I don't think that means dropping skill challenges. I'm even winning over the player of the Warpriest

 

[JamesonCourage]

If there is one aspect of D&D that I really, really wish had been expanded in 4E before its conclusion, it is the handling of social and "exploration" (in which I include the sort of thing in the OP) challenges. Not only techniques for Skill Challenges, but systems for adding time sequencing ("turns"), active opposition, power effects, supplementary activities (sort of analogous to "Minor Actions") and systems for PC "defensive" activity in such situations. What has been done with Skill Challenges shows the scope for adding some structure and process around these situations; to have professional designers focus energy on developing thoughts and processes for that could have yielded something revolutionary, I think. It has to stand as a missed opportunity, in my book.

That could be really interesting. I'm not sure I know how I'd want it to work, though. I think it's one of those "I want to see what someone else comes up with, and that'll give me a ton of ideas on how to 'improve' on what they came up with."

I still don't think I've done a social Skill Challenge in this campaign yet (though I have in my RPG, multiple times). I think I know when it'll first come up, but we'll see. It'll be interesting to play it out, at any rate

 

[Quickleaf]

That could be really interesting. I'm not sure I know how I'd want it to work, though. I think it's one of those "I want to see what someone else comes up with, and that'll give me a ton of ideas on how to 'improve' on what they came up with."

I still don't think I've done a social Skill Challenge in this campaign yet (though I have in my RPG, multiple times). I think I know when it'll first come up, but we'll see. It'll be interesting to play it out, at any rate

Ah, you've just reminded me of my negotiation skill challenges. I've run one once before and it went OK, that was when I developed this formula for negotiation challenges...

Create a list of questions that an NPC will ask the PCs, and require 1-3 successes per question, depending on its complexity. For each question, establish about 4 possible responses, half via skill checks, half automatic successes based on saying the right thing, calling on previous adventure details, or using an especially suited power. Then include a partial victory condition, in addition to victory and defeat.

For example, in the adventure BEAST OF BECHAEUX (which I'll upload soon), at one point the PCs need to track down a white-eyed elven assassin and have 2 leads: The menacing elven Alder King or the treacherous human Lord Polding. Both are negotiation challenges with a distinctly different feel. If the PCs decide to deal with Lord Polding, for example, his first two questions are:

1. Are you lot trustworthy, or will you sell me out to the Duke? (requires 2 successes)

• Have a token of his bastard daughter Aria's or leverage knowledge of her true parentage (1 success)
• Diplomacy DC 20 for declaration of neutrality in the conflict between Polding and the Duke (1 success)
• History DC 20 to stroke his ego about family's claims to the duchy of Bechaeux (1 success)
• Swear to help him against the Duke somehow (2 successes)

2. Well then, why do you want to find the white-eyed assassin? (requires 2 successes)

• Truthfully answer to learn of her dealings with the Beast (1 success)
• Promise not to tell the assassin that Polding sold her out (1 success)
• Be an elf or half-elf and claim familial bonds, the prejudiced Polding can't tell difference (1 success)
• Bluff DC 20 that they want for contract the assassin's services (2 successes)

Other questions that Lord Polding would pose include:
What makes you think the assassin will agree to what you want?
Many against one? Shouldn't I warn the assassin to even the odds?
I have a contract with the assassin...who fulfills it if you kill her?
If the assassin kills you, who inherits your holdings and fine magic items?

The example answers aren't meant to be comprehensive, but to provide inspiration and insight into the NPC's motives/personality and the intricacies of the negotiation's situation. What's good about using questions to organize the challenge is that it creates a back and forth between players and DM, and you can switch the order of the questions or insert filler role-playing between questions. I choose 1-3 successes per question (and 2 feels like the right number) because that way you can roleplay the NPC as initially being reluctant (0 successes), then being on the fence (1 success), then being convinced (2 successes) in regards to a question...which is a good indication to players of how successful they are without having to reference mechanics if you don't want to. Questions also help with pacing, moving things along so that the players don't spend all their time trying to convince the NPC of their trustworthiness or answering one question in exhaustive detail.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Ah, you've just reminded me of my negotiation skill challenges. I've run one once before and it went OK, that was when I developed this formula for negotiation challenges...

Create a list of questions that an NPC will ask the PCs, and require 1-3 successes per question, depending on its complexity. For each question, establish about 4 possible responses, half via skill checks, half automatic successes based on saying the right thing, calling on previous adventure details, or using an especially suited power. Then include a partial victory condition, in addition to victory and defeat.

For example

[SNIP]

That's pretty interesting. It's much more structured than what I normally run, but I've been trying to mix it up recently (the dream Skill Challenge I ran last session was very structured, for example). I like the auto success thing, too, to a degree, but I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I could see it just giving access to a skill (you can roll Religion since you brought a relic he's interested in), or a bonus on a roll (since you have the ribbon on-hand, you get a +2 bonus on your roll). Something for me to think about... thanks!

 

[Balesir]

That could be really interesting. I'm not sure I know how I'd want it to work, though. I think it's one of those "I want to see what someone else comes up with, and that'll give me a ton of ideas on how to 'improve' on what they came up with."

Absolutely - I would want to see what a set of professionals can produce and then consider how it works and what I might change. That is why its lack is a disappointment - it's not something I have enough of a grip of to write up a system I'm happy with for myself. Multiclassing, for example, I'm already rejigging for my next campaign, but systems for non-combat "encounters" are not something I feel able to tackle on my own. Time and expertise are both lacking!

 

[Manbearcat]

Oh, definitely. There are lots of ways to do it, as shown in @Manbearcat 's Skill Challenge Depot thread. So many different takes, so much potential fun to be had. Even the two in my session were very different (pretty scripted for the first versus pretty open-ended in the second). I'm trying to play to 4e's strong points, and I don't think that means dropping skill challenges. I'm even winning over the player of the Warpriest

Great recap. To the end that you're speaking of above, sometime in the future I'm going to outline a few cool Skill Challenges that took place in my home game. Architecturally, they were both riffed off of the stylings of the Adjure Ritual; rewards/boons for each success with 3 failures closing out the conflict. Further, they both included unlimited (the typical guidance is 2-3 per conflict) secondary skills (each at the easy DC) to augment primary skills (each at the hard DC).

One Skill Challenge was a Spiritual Sojourn by the Druid whereby she sought consultation with, and the aid of (specifically the means to crossover into the Abyss to meet up with the PCs' "lost" companion), several of the Elder Spirits (The Soul Serpent, The Fate Weaver, Stormhawk, The World Tree, The Monster Slayers) in the dreamscape of the spirit world. The second Skill Challenge was recruitment of a shadow creature army (Army of Darkness?) by the Rogue (Darklord ED) for the coming invasion of the Abyss.

They went off quite well, producing exciting, genre-coherent gameplay at the Epic Tier. I'll try to update that SC thread with them when I get an opportunity. I think people would have fun using the same schematic for their games.

 

[Quickleaf]

That's pretty interesting. It's much more structured than what I normally run, but I've been trying to mix it up recently (the dream Skill Challenge I ran last session was very structured, for example). I like the auto success thing, too, to a degree, but I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I could see it just giving access to a skill (you can roll Religion since you brought a relic he's interested in), or a bonus on a roll (since you have the ribbon on-hand, you get a +2 bonus on your roll). Something for me to think about... thanks!

I have a very biased opinion about social skills (skills in general, actually) in RPGs, so take this with a grain of salt. My bias is that good ideas should always be weighted more heavily than numbers.

First of all the DM's best friend (the +2 modifier) is only a 10% adjustment. When a player comes up with a really good idea, my first instinct is not to say "Ok, you are 10% more likely to succeed now." As an extension of that logic, I want to encourage good ideas, so why even bother with a chance for it to fail? Particularly in PC-NPC interaction this works very well for players who prefer to method-act rather than roll dice, and let's both types of players (method-actors & rollers) play side by side.

Now, D&D Next would say about a +30% on average (what advantage works out to) is right. My thinking is why even bother with risk of failure? It's a good idea. Don't let it go to waste. I don't know how many times I've been in games where a player has a really great idea and then they flub their roll, only to get this dejected look on their face. It seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me And that should be reserved for dungeon design!

In regard to your other idea, if I make the roleplaying required to access a skill check, that's a change that affects both player types. IOW now the player who is not so good at method-acting or the role-playing side of things (who I'm calling the "roller") is now requires to roleplay their interaction in order to make a skill check at all. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, but it definitely is an imposition on the players that the DM should make sure they are cool with before implementing.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Great recap. To the end that you're speaking of above, sometime in the future I'm going to outline a few cool Skill Challenges that took place in my home game. Architecturally, they were both riffed off of the stylings of the Adjure Ritual; rewards/boons for each success with 3 failures closing out the conflict. Further, they both included unlimited (the typical guidance is 2-3 per conflict) secondary skills (each at the easy DC) to augment primary skills (each at the hard DC).

One Skill Challenge was a Spiritual Sojourn by the Druid whereby she sought consultation with, and the aid of (specifically the means to crossover into the Abyss to meet up with the PCs' "lost" companion), several of the Elder Spirits (The Soul Serpent, The Fate Weaver, Stormhawk, The World Tree, The Monster Slayers) in the dreamscape of the spirit world. The second Skill Challenge was recruitment of a shadow creature army (Army of Darkness?) by the Rogue (Darklord ED) for the coming invasion of the Abyss.

They went off quite well, producing exciting, genre-coherent gameplay at the Epic Tier. I'll try to update that SC thread with them when I get an opportunity. I think people would have fun using the same schematic for their games.

EN World ate my post ("Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded"; I haven't logged out or in since I started writing it). Basically, this looks interesting, and I'm looking forward to reading about your method. I like trying new Skill Challenge methods (I did an open-ended challenge and a very set challenge last session), and I'm interested in what you wrote about, maybe a social challenge tweaked like [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] mentioned, or the "X successes before N rounds" method that [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION]'s talked about in the past (post #61).