Jeremy Crawford On The Dark Side of Developing 5E

WotC's Jeremy Crawford spoke to The Escapist about the D&D 5th Edition development process and his role in the game's production. "There was a dark side where it was kind of crushing. The upside is it allowed us to have a throughline for the whole project. So I was the person who decided if what we had decided was important two years prior was still being executed two years later."


You can read the full interview here, but below are the key highlights.

• Mike Mearls started pondering about D&D 5th Edition while the 4E Essentials books were being worked on in 2010.
• There were "heated discussions" about the foundations of 5E.
• Crawford is the guy who "made the decision about precisely what was going to be in the game".
• Crawford considers D&D's settings as an important pillar.

For another recent interview, see Chris Perkins talking to Chris "Wacksteven" Iannitti.

 

[pemerton]

And using that logic they never published modern APs, they do not know how many of those they can sell.

I suspect they are going on more than guesswork. They have sales figures for their 4e adventures, I would assume one of the biggest marketing teams in the RPG business, etc.

having metrics doesn't mean you interpret them correctly or take the optimal decision using those metrics. *cough*4e*couch*

The best evidence we have of 4e's financial success was that it made a 2 year playtest of 5e possible. To me that suggests that it was relatively profitable, and that the DDI income stream in particular was not negligible.

A game without updates starts to feel abandoned. Sure, it can be beloved and played forever, but eventually even the more ardent supporter clamor for new stuff.

<snip>

The debate isn't that WotC needs another book-of-the-month club release schedule, but that it needs to say what it IS doing. Its the silence that's maddening.

New stuff will come out. It already has come out, and for free! Look at the PotA supplement.

In my view, though, what really makes a game feel 'abandoned' is when a would-be new player can't find a group. There is no evidence that people are having trouble finding 5e groups, or will for the foreseeable future have any such trouble.

As for silence: someone else upthread (maybe [MENTION=6701829]Trickster Spirit[/MENTION]) indicated that WotC has an announcement window of about 6 months. So on something like (say) psionics, will there eventually be something - probably yes - but will it be in the next 6 months - probably not.

I can't believe this is what they had in mind in 2012.

About a year ago, Mearls stated that WotC wasn't intending to focus its efforts for D%D on the RPG publishing market. He even talks about settings, and notes that the main value of the settings is not in publishing RPG books for them.

That's not 2012, but it's unlikely that Mearls just made all that up off the top of his head at a gaming convention. They've been planning this approach for some time, and have given plenty of notice of it!

 

[pemerton]

Here's the thing. That's your guess at what was meant. You have a guess, I have a guess, my dog probably doesn't have a guess because, dog. It's your guess at Pemerton's guess at what WotC is thinking. Without some kind of authority, your guess and my guess have equal value, and Pemerton's guess and my guess about WotC have equal value.

<snip>

If someone wants to actually say "I think you should do (or not) this because I think your opinion is less valuable to WotC's because reasons, AND here's why doing X, or not doing Y, will benefit or hurt you", then we actually have something to talk about, at least for a moment.

This is getting oddly meta-, but trying to descend back down to simpler levels of conversation:

I haven't said that you (or anyone else) should or shouldn't do or say anything.

My point about you being atypical was (and remains) that your standards for "supported game" or "supported setting" are, in my view, not typical. Based on your posts upthread about having all the old GH material on shelf, and having been published in Dragon and having been invited by Mona to apply for a job at WotC, I am going to guess that you have many, many shelf-inches of D&D material, probably $1000s worth.

WotC has made it clear (see eg the links to the Dancy/Mearls/Luke Crane panel a post or two above this one) that they will not be publishing 5e material at the sort of rate to make that sort of consumption of D&D material feasible. Hence, it seems that you may inevitably feel that the game/the settings are not supported to the standard that you desire

I'm not saying that that is a good thing or a bad thing. That you are right or wrong. That you should go quiet or speak up about it. It's just my prediction, based on the little you have posted about yourself and the little bit more that Mearls has told us about WotC publication strategy.

I've indicated my criteria for "support" over a couple of posts: can a new player, who wants to start a game set in GH, do that easily? And I think the answer is yes. Five to ten years ago that was not the case, because collecting all that out-of-print material was not easy. Now it is - it's all back in (digital) print again, on DriveThru. All that's missing is a really good catalogue/index. You characterised this view of "support", upthread, as asinine. By your standards that may be so. By my standards it is not.

I've already explained, upthread, how I went about starting a new GH game. In my case I used the stuff on my shelves; but were I a new player I could have bought all that stuff with 5 minutes of effort on DriveThru.

Over 15 years ago now I started an Oriental Adventures game. Again, I used the stuff I had on my shelves, most of which I'd managed to pick up second-hand over the years. Today, I would be able to pick up OA1 to OA3 (the latter, in particular being an excellent module) from DriveThru. (The later, FR-badged modules don't seem to be up yet, which is a pity - OA5 has fun bits, and OA7 is terrific.)

The availability of these various products for these various worlds is support for RPGing in those worlds.

For those who want more fiction of those worlds, Mearls said back in 2014 that RPG book publishing probably wouldn't be the vehicle, and Chris Perkins has confirmed that a week or so ago. So keep your eyes and ears peeled for Perkins's surprise!

 

[HobbitFan]

While the old Greyhawk material is available, older sourcebooks are not always the easiest to parse through for material. Especially for new people who aren't familiar with the setting and don't know what to look for and where.
That's where new setting sourcebooks (or whatever) would be useful.
For some settings like Dragonlance the history is cluttered and honestly, divisive enough, that its hard to know what era to choose and what books to get.
This is true of long-dormant settings like Mystara as well as ones that recently went through great changes (Forgotten Realms, etc).

 

[Nellisir]

You said outside the norm. They want the norm. If you're outside the norm, they won't care as much about your opinion. Norm meaning statistical norm as in largest number of people.

True, I don't know what WotC specifically thinks. I do know that they used rigorous statistical analysis and playtest to build a D&D system that appealed to the largest number of players. If your preferences fall outside the majority of play testers, then most likely your concerns were already taken into account and pushed to the side as outside the norm. I see posts on this thread saying certain features were ripped from the game during the play test. That usually happens because the majority didn't like those features or they created major problems in the rule system. Either way the system we have is the one their data driven analysis determined would please the majority of players and their internal rules team determined would play in a consistent manner within the parameters of human fallibility to make both possible.

Well, that was...interesting. I have no idea what conversation you think you're having, but I don't have a problem with the 5e system. Quite the reverse.

 

[Nellisir]

This is getting oddly meta-, but trying to descend back down to simpler levels of conversation:

It is pretty meta, but sometimes it's really useful to break things down. I think this is a really good post, btw.

I haven't said that you (or anyone else) should or shouldn't do or say anything.

That is correct.

My point about you being atypical was (and remains) that your standards for "supported game" or "supported setting" are, in my view, not typical.

I think you might be off about my standards for supported game. Will get to it below.

Based on your posts upthread about having all the old GH material on shelf, and having been published in Dragon and having been invited by Mona to apply for a job at WotC, I am going to guess that you have many, many shelf-inches of D&D material, probably $1000s worth.

True for intents and purposes.

WotC has made it clear (see eg the links to the Dancy/Mearls/Luke Crane panel a post or two above this one) that they will not be publishing 5e material at the sort of rate to make that sort of consumption of D&D material feasible. Hence, it seems that you may inevitably feel that the game/the settings are not supported to the standard that you desire

Ah, see, I think there's a bit of a leap here. I haven't asked for 2e levels of support. I don't think I've even asked for 3e levels of support (except possibly in the digital realm).

I'm not saying that that is a good thing or a bad thing. That you are right or wrong. That you should go quiet or speak up about it.

True.

It's just my prediction, based on the little you have posted about yourself and the little bit more that Mearls has told us about WotC publication strategy.

I think WotC has been remarkably vague in their strategy. I ALSO think that a portion of the internet has interpreted that vagueness into a pretty strict orthodoxy. I think WotC should be less vague in a number of points, but I don't have a problem with what they've actually said. It's not WHAT they've said, it's HOW they've said it.

I DO disagree with the interpretation that's been bestowed.

I've indicated my criteria for "support" over a couple of posts: can a new player, who wants to start a game set in GH, do that easily? And I think the answer is yes. Five to ten years ago that was not the case, because collecting all that out-of-print material was not easy. Now it is - it's all back in (digital) print again, on DriveThru. All that's missing is a really good catalogue/index. You characterised this view of "support", upthread, as asinine. By your standards that may be so. By my standards it is not.

Right, we have different standards. To use your starting question, the back catalog lacks an easy point of entry for any newcomers into FR and Greyhawk (and Mystara). There are at least four points of entry into Greyhawk (gold box set; FTA; TAB; 3e book) , and a similar number into the Forgotten Realms (grey box set; big box set; 3e; 4e). There's also no clear guide/path through the material. For instance, I'm a newby. I like the 5e Starter Set. I go online and buy...the big box set. What then? Waterdeep and the North? The Waterdeep hardcover? (I think there was one.) The Savage North softcover? The 4e book (Neverwinter?)? I've just read about The Sundering; which book covers that?

I've already explained, upthread, how I went about starting a new GH game. In my case I used the stuff on my shelves; but were I a new player I could have bought all that stuff with 5 minutes of effort on DriveThru.

Over 15 years ago now I started an Oriental Adventures game. Again, I used the stuff I had on my shelves, most of which I'd managed to pick up second-hand over the years. Today, I would be able to pick up OA1 to OA3 (the latter, in particular being an excellent module) from DriveThru. (The later, FR-badged modules don't seem to be up yet, which is a pity - OA5 has fun bits, and OA7 is terrific.)

I think that you might be underestimating how much easier your existing knowledge makes the process. There is a recent thread here on EN World asking what to buy to start a FR campaign (OP was leaning towards 4e book, under the assumption that more recent = more informative.)

The availability of these various products for these various worlds is support for RPGing in those worlds.

We disagree. That's cool.

For those who want more fiction of those worlds, Mearls said back in 2014 that RPG book publishing probably wouldn't be the vehicle, and Chris Perkins has confirmed that a week or so ago. So keep your eyes and ears peeled for Perkins's surprise!

I'm not sure exactly what you're defining as fiction, but...sure. Perkins' statement was a good example of a vague announcement that's been interpreted a particular way. I don't have a problem with what he's said, because he hasn't really said anything.

I think any talk about "settings" conflates several different topics: static information (waterdeep is a city); game mechanics (Khelben is X level); and campaign narrative thread (Khelben is dead). The static information is largely edition-neutral; the game mechanics in the back catalog are not current (it's possible to convert, but without a guide to converting, it's not necessarily intuitive, particularly for new DMs. If an item grants Strength 18/99, what does that mean?); and the campaign narrative is confusing and/or out-of-date in the most prominent cases (GH, FR, Mystara).

I have to go. Good talk.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I cannot speak for someone else with certainty, of course. But based on my own experience in the industry and hearing people talk, I believe, using [MENTION=70]Nellisir[/MENTION] 's categories (and good job on breaking those down, BTW), that "fiction" in this context refers to both static info and campaign narrative. More primarily the latter than the former, but some elements of both.

IOW, there will not be a book specifically devoted to "This is Cormyr, its history, and its government," nor will there be one devoted to "This is what's happened in Cormyr since the Spellplague." (Or to both combined.) If I'm interpreting properly, of course.

 

[HobbitFan]

I cannot speak for someone else with certainty, of course. But based on my own experience in the industry and hearing people talk, I believe, using [MENTION=70]Nellisir[/MENTION] 's categories (and good job on breaking those down, BTW), that "fiction" in this context refers to both static info and campaign narrative. More primarily the latter than the former, but some elements of both.

IOW, there will not be a book specifically devoted to "This is Cormyr, its history, and its government," nor will there be one devoted to "This is what's happened in Cormyr since the Spellplague." (Or to both combined.) If I'm interpreting properly, of course.

I'm confused...if they aren't going into backstory/lore and they aren't telling new narrative....what are they doing with a setting then?
Not trying to be diffilcult...I don't get it.

 

[Kramodlog]

I suspect they are going on more than guesswork. They have sales figures for their 4e adventures, I would assume one of the biggest marketing teams in the RPG business, etc.

Even with a big marketing team, they still have no metric on selling WotC brand APs.

The best evidence we have of 4e's financial success was that it made a 2 year playtest of 5e possible. To me that suggests that it was relatively profitable, and that the DDI income stream in particular was not negligible.

The Deluge let Noah's decendants repopulate the Earth, that doesn't mean the Deluge was good for literally 99.99999999% of humanity.

More seriously, from Crawford's interview:

"Mike [Mearls] argued very eloquently to the executives for the time to make the best version of D&D and the best books possible. We gave very frequent reports. The whole company took a gamble on whether the idealistic version of D&D could succeed. It was a risk, and it's possible that it wouldn't pan out, but we are very happy that it actually worked.

Gamble, risk, wouldn't of pan out, could succeed, frequent reports. Not signs 4e was an economic success and that 5e would be one.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I'm confused...if they aren't going into backstory/lore and they aren't telling new narrative....what are they doing with a setting then?
Not trying to be diffilcult...I don't get it.

I didn't say (and they didn't say) that they wouldn't do it. They said they wouldn't be devoting specific books to it or doing it in a way "people expect." For instance, if they had a political/royalty-focused adventure path in mind, they might set it (by default) in Cormyr, and introduce details and "campaign advancement" throughout.

As far as not doing the "fiction" through the RPG, that could mean all kinds of things. They're going to advance the campaigns/meta-plots via novels. Or via an MMO. Or an online animated series. Or interpretive dance.

Some of these options may be more likely than others. But they're all just examples and possibilities; I have no particular inside info.

 

[Nellisir]

A quick addendum to my previous post. All IMO.

• Dragonlance: Narrative is out of date; static info probably OK; mechanics probably OK.
• Birthright: Static info is good, campaign narrative is actually cohesive and usable; mechanics could be/should be updated. A rules module for running Birthright-style games would be great; more substantial than an Unearthed Arcana article.
• Ravenloft: Static info is something of a mess, campaign narrative is a mess; mechanics are basically fine. I don't know what is next to what anymore, or who rules what.
• Planescape: Static info is basically OK but could be tweaked to match current cosmology; never really had a strong campaign narrative; mechanics are basically fine. Could use more monsters.
• Dark Sun: Did 4e roll back the timeline here? I think static info is basically OK, campaign narrative always seemed klunky; mechanics need updating.
• Spelljammer: Static info is fine; no strong campaign narrative; mechanics might be fairly simple to update. Good candidate for an Unearthed Arcana-type article.

All that aside, there's the question of having a product in print. Yes, pdfs are convenient, but many people find them inconvenient or difficult to read for a long time (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...96ca86-b871-11e4-9423-f3d0a1ec335c_story.html). In the aforementioned thread on a FR campaign book, another point of appeal for the 4e book was its availability in print.