jgbrowning, Rystil Arden, and Hypersmurf talk amongst themselves

[Hypersmurf]

In D&D, to Sunder means "To strike a weapon or shield".

Yup - that tallies with my reading of it.

-Hyp.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Do let's avoid the snarkiness, Rystil.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

I was being serious. Its very interesting to me to see this in action, as it is a completey alien thought process to me. I put in the smily to try and convey that I didn't mean to be snarky, but I guess I failed

 

[Pielorinho]

Let's suppose y'all are right; I'll need to change my game to set up this new system. Can y'all help me with some questions here?
1) How do I fix my damaged sword after the battle? What skills do I use? I'm guessing craft: blacksmithing comes into play; what mechanic do I use for repairing the hit-point damage to a weapon?
2) I know that I need someone with Craft Arms and Armor to help me fix a broken magical weapon; do I need their assistance to repair damage to a magical weapon? How do we figure the cost and time taken for them to repair this damage to a magical weapon?
3) Speaking of magic, forget using skills to fix this damage--I'm just going to get my spellcaster friends to help me out. What spells are available to repair hit-point damage to objects, and what mechanic will they use for doing so?
4) I just found a new and improved magic sword in the loot after our last battle. What skill or spell can I use to determine whether the sword has suffered any hit-point damage?
5) What mechanic did my DM use to determine whether the magic sword had ever had a successful sunder attempt against it before I looted it, and if so, how many hit points of damage it had suffered in that attempt?

I'd appreciate y'all referencing the SRD in your answers to these questions.

Alternatively, y'all might want to consider reading the passage in the straightforward fashion I recommend: my alien thought-process is quite useful sometimes!

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

In D&D, to Sunder means "To strike a weapon or shield". Nothing about actually breaking it.

In order to use Rusting Grasp against an opponent's sword, I have to strike an opponent's sword with my bare hand with a melee touch attack:

Note: Striking at an opponent's weapon provokes an attack of opportunity.

Why, then, do they not just refer to the Sunder mechanic for this, if the definition of sunder is "to strike a weapon or shield"? The mechanic they offer is a melee touch attack, not an opposed roll.

Daniel

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Let's suppose y'all are right; I'll need to change my game to set up this new system. Can y'all help me with some questions here?

Absolutely!

1) How do I fix my damaged sword after the battle? What skills do I use? I'm guessing craft: blacksmithing comes into play; what mechanic do I use for repairing the hit-point damage to a weapon?

The craft skill that was used to make the weapon to begin with.

Repairing Items: Generally, you can repair an item by making checks against the same DC that it took to make the item in the first place. The cost of repairing an item is one-fifth of the item’s price.

So, to completely repair a Masterwork Longsword (for instance), you'd need to make Craft (Weaponsmithing) checks at DC 20 (the Masterwork DC), and it would cost you (315 / 5 =) 63gp. Note that this will take it from "Broken in Half" to "Completely repaired." Most DMs I've dealt with prorate the materials cost in terms of how damaged the weapon is (1/2 HP = 32gp).

2) I know that I need someone with Craft Arms and Armor to help me fix a broken magical weapon; do I need their assistance to repair damage to a magical weapon? How do we figure the cost and time taken for them to repair this damage to a magical weapon?

1. No - magical items which are damaged (but not destroyed) can be rebuilt using the appropriate Craft skill.
2. Magical items which are completely destroyed may be reforged by a creator with the appropriate item creation feat at a fraction of the "make new" cost. Note that, in the case of a weapon, you'd need to reforge the masterwork blade first, and then repair the enhancements.

REPAIRING MAGIC ITEMS
Some magic items take damage over the course of an adventure. It costs no more to repair a magic item with the Craft skill than it does to repair its nonmagical counterpart. The make whole spell also repairs a damaged—but not completely broken—magic item.

You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

3) Speaking of magic, forget using skills to fix this damage--I'm just going to get my spellcaster friends to help me out. What spells are available to repair hit-point damage to objects, and what mechanic will they use for doing so?

There's a few:

Mending (Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0): Makes minor repairs on an object.
Make Whole (Clr 2): Repairs an object.
Fabricate (Sor/Wiz 5): Transforms raw materials into finished items.

I believe the ECS added a few more.

4) I just found a new and improved magic sword in the loot after our last battle. What skill or spell can I use to determine whether the sword has suffered any hit-point damage?

A DC 0 Craft (Weaponsmithing) check.

5) What mechanic did my DM use to determine whether the magic sword had ever had a successful sunder attempt against it before I looted it, and if so, how many hit points of damage it had suffered in that attempt?

The same one that determined who made the sword, what they used it against, what enhancements are present, etc.

In other words, DM Fiat.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why, then, do they not just refer to the Sunder mechanic for this, if the definition of sunder is "to strike a weapon or shield"? The mechanic they offer is a melee touch attack, not an opposed roll.

Well, strictly, it's to strike a weapon or shield with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon.

Rusting Grasp is neither... and as you note, it uses a touch attack, which is different to the mechanics for Sunder.

-Hyp.

 

[Seeten]

They dont refer to Sunder because for Rusting Grasp to work, all you need to do is touch the weapon, which is much easier than having to strike it with such force as to smash it into little pieces.

Touch football requires a touch. Tackle football requires enough force to actually knock a person from their feet. I think we'd all say it isnt the same mechanic.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In order to use Rusting Grasp against an opponent's sword, I have to strike an opponent's sword with my bare hand with a melee touch attack:



Why, then, do they not just refer to the Sunder mechanic for this, if the definition of sunder is "to strike a weapon or shield"? The mechanic they offer is a melee touch attack, not an opposed roll.

Because they are different mechanics?

One represents the need to merely bring your slightest touch to bear on a weapon - slapping it is a good as grabbing it and bending it in half, as far as the spell is concerned.

The other represents attempting to hit your opponent's weapon in such a way as to break it - a touch attack, here, would merely represent a parry of some form. As such, you need to do damage, and so a full attack roll (and, in this case, opposed by your opponent, since cutting a blade in half is harder than just touching it) is necessary.

 

[Pielorinho]

The craft skill that was used to make the weapon to begin with.

So, to completely repair a Masterwork Longsword (for instance), you'd need to make Craft (Weaponsmithing) checks at DC 20 (the Masterwork DC), and it would cost you (315 / 5 =) 63gp. Note that this will take it from "Broken in Half" to "Completely repaired." Most DMs I've dealt with prorate the materials cost in terms of how damaged the weapon is (1/2 HP = 32gp).

By the rules, I said. And you're telling me by the rules it's just as difficult to repair a 1 HP scratch to a sword as to repair a sword shattered into pieces? Hmm. My common sense is tingling.

1. No - magical items which are damaged (but not destroyed) can be rebuilt using the appropriate Craft skill.
2. Magical items which are completely destroyed may be reforged by a creator with the appropriate item creation feat at a fraction of the "make new" cost. Note that, in the case of a weapon, you'd need to reforge the masterwork blade first, and then repair the enhancements.

I'm not interested in costs for "completely destroyed" weapons; I understand how those work. I'm not sure how you arrive at point #1, though.

Mending (Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0): Makes minor repairs on an object.
Make Whole (Clr 2): Repairs an object.
Fabricate (Sor/Wiz 5): Transforms raw materials into finished items.

Mending doesn't reference healing hit-point damage, and Make Whole doesn't either, although I can see what you're saying; presumably it'll heal all HP damage on a magic sword. So I'll grant you this.

A DC 0 Craft (Weaponsmithing) check.

Is that in the SRD somewhere? I'm not seeing it--help me out.

The same one that determined who made the sword, what they used it against, what enhancements are present, etc.

In other words, DM Fiat.

Hold on--this is a vital characteristic that's gonna come up in combat, and there's charts to determine other vital stats (the enhancements on a weapon, the spells present in a ring of storing, etc.) I have never seen an adventure with the current HP stats of a weapon encountered, although almost all adventures with wands as treasure mention how many charges are left in the wand. Why the glaring gap?

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Because they are different mechanics?
.

Sorry--they clearly refer to it as striking a weapon. (Perhaps Hypersmurf is right that your hand is not a blunt weapon--but my hand is certainly not a piercing weapon).

Daniel