TSR Jim Ward: Demons & Devils, NOT!

In the very early to mid '80s religious nongamer people discovered AD&D had magical spells and demons and devils in its rules. The problems started with Sears and Penny's retail stores. TSR was selling thousands of Player Handbooks and Dungeon Master's Guides every month to both of those companies. I know this because I was in sales and inventory control at the time.

In the very early to mid '80s religious nongamer people discovered AD&D had magical spells and demons and devils in its rules. The problems started with Sears and Penny's retail stores. TSR was selling thousands of Player Handbooks and Dungeon Master's Guides every month to both of those companies. I know this because I was in sales and inventory control at the time.

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Six ladies wrote to Sears and the same six wrote to Penny's home offices telling those two companies of the evils of AD&D. They expounded on children learning to throw demonic spells while they summoned demons in their basements. The writers claimed that they would never buy a thing again from those two companies if the companies still sold TSR games. Just like a light switch those two companies stopped selling TSR product. The companies were offered things like Boot Hill, Tractics, and Gamma World, but they weren't interested. The stopping of sales from those two huge companies was a hard blow to take for TSR.


Author's Note: When I write these articles for EN World I'm trying to present an honest look at my memories of those times. There was enough wild and crazy things happening at TSR that I think the readers should be entertained. I freely admit that there might be dates and times that I don't have correctly related. However, I never try to exaggerate the facts or actions of others. I was in the thick of things and part of the design group and middle management for most of the 20+ years I worked there. If I make a mistake in the writing of these memories, I'm sorry and the mistake was unintentional.

Things proceeded and the bible belt southern states started doing book burnings. Those always elated Gary Gygax because he thought every player who had their books taken away would go back and buy the books again.

Gary went on some of the talk shows to speak about the value of the game. He was an excellent champion for the company. One of his arguments, that I really liked, was his baseball analogy. He would say, “When a criminal hurts someone with a baseball bat are you supposed to blame baseball?” That would make the naysayers sputter every time.

Duke Siegfried, Uncle Duke as he liked to be called, ran news interview classes for the middle management of TSR; these were people who had a chance to be interviewed out at conventions. I can especially remember one of the training sessions. Duke role-played the part of Johnny Carson. Don Snow was to be the TSR representative getting interviewed. Terri Quinn was in marketing at the time and her job was to distract Don. While Duke interviewed Don about D&D, asking questions to make the game look bad, Terri went to work on Don. Acting all the way, poor Don was torn between the distraction of Terri and the questions of Duke. At the end of the scenario Duke explained that set ups like that were common for news people and we needed to be on the look out for such things. I can remember thinking that scenario could never happen.

Six months later I was at a convention in Atlanta when a reporter started quizzing and flirting with me about the evils of AD&D and its harmful effects on children. I started out all smiles and really enjoying the woman's company and her style. Suddenly, remembering Duke's lesson, I became grim-faced, and gave out the bullet-point facts Duke had prepared us with if we were interviewed. She didn't get the interview she wanted from me.

Conventions for awhile became a trial for us. Religious people would come up to the TSR booth and start arguing with us about the evils of D&D. I'm proud to say we soon found an answer for them. I have a friend Dave Conant who worked in the typesetting department. He didn't get out to many conventions. Gen Con in August was a convention everyone working for TSR went to and did 40 hours. One Gen Con in August a particularly nasty gentlemen was berating the sales woman at the show. They didn't know what to think of the dude and wanted to be polite. I knew exactly what the guy was doing. He wanted to get 15 minutes of fame as a person concerned about the evils of D&D.

I was on my way over to give the guy the bums rush, when Dave showed up. He had taken his cross out of his shirt and started calmly talking to the guy. Dave established that the guy had never read one bit of the TSR material. The man only knew what he had heard from others. Then Dave started asking the guy questions about what he thought was wrong with the game. Dave was able to quote bible versus as he calmly and gently completely tore apart the guy's argument. I had always been impressed by Dave's technical skills, but I became even more impressed with his logical argument. From then on we had at least two religious TSR people at every convention. It was amazing how quick those anti-TSR people stopped coming at us at those shows.

Time passed and TSR started working on AD&D 2nd edition. By then I had come to a realization. At conventions I had been in on many discussions about the evils of AD&D. Literally every single person coming up to argue about the game had never read one word of the books. Their argument when questioned about that fact was “We don't need to read about Satan to know he is evil.” So I came up with an idea. In second edition I ordered Zeb Cook to develop a new name for Demons & Devils.

Baatezu/Devil & Tanarri/Demon were born in second edition. Zeb did a terrific job of putting all that together.

We still had the same type of demons and devils but we called them completely different names. The word spread out that TSR had taken out all of the demons and devils in the game. Technically that wasn't true at all. But again like the click of a light switch the arguments and comments stopped. TSR picked up lots of new accounts in the Bible Best of the south. Every time it was mentioned a TSR person would tell them the company didn't have devils any more. It pleased everyone at TSR that the company didn't get any grief on that topic.
 

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Jim Ward

Jim Ward

Drawmij the Wizard

Dire Bare

Legend
Even John Dee was making the stuff up though. So even if it was "authentic", it'd basically be "fanon".

We're straying close to ENWorld's "no religion, no politics" rules. But some folks would say that most religious figures made up most of what was passed down. Or that believers made up a lot of that stuff after the religious figure was no longer around.

John Dee was certainly, ah, creative. But hardly unique in that way.
 

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We're straying close to ENWorld's "no religion, no politics" rules. But some folks would say that most religious figures made up most of what was passed down. Or that believers made up a lot of that stuff after the religious figure was no longer around.

John Dee was certainly, ah, creative. But hardly unique in that way.

I'm not making any metaphysical claims or a statement on which gods exist or don't exist, I'm only really interested in talking about history. And history says that most of what modern people would think of religions or secret ancient pre-Christian religions are reconstructions or complete inventions from the 17th century onwards, and probably owe as much to esoteric Christianity as they do to the faith that they are supposedly a continuation from. A lot of them rely on pseudo-history or outdated archaeological findings.

It's like Tarot, as I mentioned before. For the average person it seems self-evident that they are more ancient and mystical than ordinary playing cards. Mystical they may be, but ancient they are not. Playing cards are of a much older pedigree than Tarot, and were authentically used for mystical purposes in the middle ages but use them for that purpose now and people would think it ridiculous.

So I think even a religious person should feel relaxed about most of the so-called "real magic" in D&D, no more ancient or authentic than those 19th century englishmen who suddenly discovered their druidic heritage and began dancing in Stonehenge. Probably the most ancient source for any of the magic in D&D is that terribly scary book known as the Bible. (Sticks to Snakes anyone?)
 

Dire Bare

Legend
I'm not making any metaphysical claims or a statement on which gods exist or don't exist, I'm only really interested in talking about history. And history says that most of what modern people would think of religions or secret ancient pre-Christian religions are reconstructions or complete inventions from the 17th century onwards, and probably owe as much to esoteric Christianity as they do to the faith that they are supposedly a continuation from. A lot of them rely on pseudo-history or outdated archaeological findings.

It's like Tarot, as I mentioned before. For the average person it seems self-evident that they are more ancient and mystical than ordinary playing cards. Mystical they may be, but ancient they are not. Playing cards are of a much older pedigree than Tarot, and were authentically used for mystical purposes in the middle ages but use them for that purpose now and people would think it ridiculous.

So I think even a religious person should feel relaxed about most of the so-called "real magic" in D&D, no more ancient or authentic than those 19th century englishmen who suddenly discovered their druidic heritage and began dancing in Stonehenge. Probably the most ancient source for any of the magic in D&D is that terribly scary book known as the Bible. (Sticks to Snakes anyone?)

I get it, and you're not wrong.

I just felt the need to point out that you can say the same thing about major religious figures. Research the origins of Mormonism, Christianity, Islam, and just about any faith you can name . . . it's not really different.

And I don't mean to call the faith of Christians, Mormons, and others into question. Just as I try to be careful to call out the faith of those who do actually follow "occult" traditions today. Regardless of your faith tradition, some take the stories as literal truth and reality, others see them as allegorical.
 

Ravenbrook

Explorer
Yeah. I looked up the history of my church and D&D and their response to the Satanic Panic, as I wasn't alive in the 80s to experience it. They were surprisingly calm about it. D&D is not a bad activity unless you are purposefully doing bad things in it and encouraging those things.

I don't mean that it's wrong to murder someone in D&D, because every player has to learn from consequences in D&D. It's just not fun if you take away player agency, but you also shouldn't be doing things that are obviously bad, like sexual harassment or anything along those lines.
I was living in suburban Ohio during the 80s and I only knew about the Satanic Panic from the media. although they tended to focus more on the supposedly psychologically damaging effects of the game than on the religious issue. None of the parents of my fellow players had anything against D&D, but that may have been because they were all liberal protestants or catholics.
 

. although they tended to focus more on the supposedly psychologically damaging effects of the game than on the religious issue.
I can remember some people confusing the 'role playing' part of the game with the role playing that psychologists use sometimes to alter behavior (the two really aren't related at all). Apart from the 'Satanic panic' group, there was another anti-D&D group that thought the game was dangerous and could lead to suicide... and some of these people had indeed lost children who happened to play D&D (it was later shown that these children one and all had significant issues that had nothing to do with D&D). I always hesitated to really slam those people because losing a child has to be the worst thing in the world, and looking for a reason why it happened is natural. Still, they were wrong...
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
I can remember some people confusing the 'role playing' part of the game with the role playing that psychologists use sometimes to alter behavior (the two really aren't related at all). Apart from the 'Satanic panic' group, there was another anti-D&D group that thought the game was dangerous and could lead to suicide... and some of these people had indeed lost children who happened to play D&D (it was later shown that these children one and all had significant issues that had nothing to do with D&D). I always hesitated to really slam those people because losing a child has to be the worst thing in the world, and looking for a reason why it happened is natural. Still, they were wrong...
Yeah. D&D doesn't encourage suicide. I'd say, more often, D&D helps people deal with depression and suicidal thoughts.
 

I feel like you're really kicking the hornets nest here with that last part. Over the years I've known a ton of people into "the occult," and a ton of gamers. Sure, that Venn Diagram crosses now and then, but so do countless other interests. Heck, I know a hair stylist that's also a member of the OTO (and she's surely never played a game of D&D in her life).

I play since the 80s, I love the game, and I'm proudly Roman Catholic. But I'm not stupid or naive.

There actually is an article in a 1970s Dragon magazine that talks about incorporating hermetic magic into D&D. It's an interesting pre-Satanic Panic article, but even it concludes that you'd need to entirely overhaul the magic system to make it work.

...yeah, sorry, not a lot of “real hermetic magic there.” There’s more Hermetic Magic in a child’s Easy Bake Oven... at least it actually baked cookies... 😃 at best, I think the DMG might have a couple of Enochian John Dee-type magic circles copied in for flavor, but with absolutely no context, about as risky as a Pentagram on a Heavy Metal album.
 

I get it, and you're not wrong.

I just felt the need to point out that you can say the same thing about major religious figures. Research the origins of Mormonism, Christianity, Islam, and just about any faith you can name . . . it's not really different.

And I don't mean to call the faith of Christians, Mormons, and others into question. Just as I try to be careful to call out the faith of those who do actually follow "occult" traditions today. Regardless of your faith tradition, some take the stories as literal truth and reality, others see them as allegorical.

Oh, I would agree with you, but humans like their religion the opposite to their technology, as in, as old as possible, leading us to invent ancient backstories for a lot of things that aren't really there. I mean, Mormonism popped up in the same time period as most of the occult movements and neo-paganism appeared in Europe and claimed a similarly ancient pedigree.

Even the Freemasons did. Their actual connection to the Knights Templar or to Solomon's Temple is 0.
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
I mean, Mormonism popped up in the same time period as most of the occult movements and neo-paganism appeared in Europe and claimed a similarly ancient pedigree.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (you call us Mormons) started 1830. I don't know when most occult movements started, I just know when my church was officially "restarted".
 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (you call us Mormons) started 1830. I don't know when most occult movements started, I just know when my church was officially "restarted".

Probably within about plus or minus 100 years of Mormonism (not using this to cause offense, its just a lot easier that typing Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day saints" every time). Wicca and Druidism date back to early 20th century, Hermeticism got going in the 17th century, so a little earlier, but based on works from about 200 AD, but the real established hermetic "orders" are a late 19th century thing. Freemasonry, also 17th century. Theosophy is another late 19th century occult invention. The Illuminati were founded in 1776. Levay Satanism was much later, the 60s, which makes it about as ancient as the Bond franchise. (And only really 10 years older than D&D)
 

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