Jon Peterson: Does System Matter?

D&D historian Jon Peterson asks the question on his blog as he does a deep dive into how early tabletop RPG enthusiasts wrestled with the same thing. Based around the concept that 'D&D can do anything, so why learn a new system?', the conversation examines whether the system itself affects the playstyle of those playing it. Some systems are custom-designed to create a certain atmosphere (see...

D&D historian Jon Peterson asks the question on his blog as he does a deep dive into how early tabletop RPG enthusiasts wrestled with the same thing.

Based around the concept that 'D&D can do anything, so why learn a new system?', the conversation examines whether the system itself affects the playstyle of those playing it. Some systems are custom-designed to create a certain atmosphere (see Dread's suspenseful Jenga-tower narrative game), and Call of Cthulhu certainly discourages the D&D style of play, despite a d20 version in early 2000s.


AnE#37-simbalist-system.jpg
 

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pemerton

Legend
Another thing about splitting up the party in Classic Traveller: most of the PCs are carrying communicators, which means that the players can talk to one another not only at the table but in character, which means that when one PC is running screaming the other PCs know what is happening and so there can be a sort-of party play even though the party is separated.

This also supports the way in which the narrative experience of a RPG differs from that of a film: when a player's PC runs screaming, and then we at the table establish that the screams will carry over the PC's communicator, the other players don't just have their personal real world reaction of wondering what's going to happen to the running PC; they can also have their playing their PC reaction, of declaring an action in response for their PC.

This interplay of the equipment list, the ingame capacities of the PCs, and how these support the players at the table feeding their reactions back into their game play, isn't a default part of D&D. And I'm not fully persuaded that someone whose main play experience was with D&D would necessarily think of it in advance as something to allow for in their Alien scenario based around low-level fighters and rogues.
 

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TheSword

Legend
A bit over a year ago I ran an Alien-inspired Classic Traveller session.

Keeping in mind the points @Campbell and @Neonchameleon have made about both technical elements of system, and more fundamental/underlying processes of play, I want to try and itemise some of what was needed to make this work:

* Classic Traveller is a sci-fi game, in the sense that space, starships, astronauts, skills for dealing with technology, etc are all part of it by default.​
* Classic Traveller is quite non-Star Wars in its fiction - the main weapons are firearms, the most common armour is ballistic cloth, etc, ships can travel FTL but can't cross the galaxy in hours or days, and not even in a single longer voyage. This means that the system, played in accordance with the spirit and genre that it presents, won't generate action declarations from the players that are radically out-of-context for Alien.​
* Classic Traveller easily generates PCs whose main field of expertise is not fighting, and indeed who are not very impressive physically at all. And this isn't just about "fluff" descriptions - it feeds into the resolution framework. It is not hard to generate a Traveller PC who will fall down unconscious or even dead if shot; who is no match for a leopard in hand-to-hand fighting; etc. This is important for Alien because it means that there are some PCs whose players will recognise that they are no match, in combat, for the Alien. So they will have to run or call for help or something similar.​
* Classic Traveller has fully integrated animal generation rules, which make it easy to mechanically stat up the Alien and put it into mechanical as well as fictional motion in the game.​
* Classic Traveller gives the referee a lot of authority to establish the initial fiction. In the context of this particular scenario, it is easy for me as referee to decide that the abandoned ship the PCs are investigating has Aliens on board. It's also easy for me to introduce elements of the framing that give clues and establish the "feel" of the possibility of some sort of "unexpected" threat.​
* Classic Traveller has pretty good rules for determining encounter surprise and encounter range which mean that, once I decide that the PCs encounter an alien on the ship, things move out of the realm of GM fiat and into the realm of mechanics. This allows PC expertise to factor in (eg one player had his PC spend money to train in Tactics, which gives her a benefit to avoid surprise), and generally reduces the sense of GM-choosing-to-hose-the-players.​
* Classic Traveller has player-side morale rules, which would help establish some feel, but on this occasion I forgot to use them! It didn't matter because we had fleeing PCs due to rational player choice without the need for any help from the dice!​

Here's one thing which I think is crucial to Alien but doesn't really have a system element in Classic Traveller to support it: the PCs split up.

This was an important part of the scenario I GMed, but it wasn't generated via application of the rules. (Contrast, say, MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic or Apocalypse World/Dungeon World, which allow splitting or joining the party as clearly-identified GM moves.)

Rather, the party being split up was an emergent consequence of equipment rationing (there were only so many vacc suits in the PCs' vessel's ship's locker) and then player decision-making about who was good at what and hence should perform what task in exploring the abandoned ship. I had established a "clock" - an approaching Imperial naval cutter also seeking to interdict the abandoned ship - which generated a bit of in-fiction pressure for the players to move quickly rather than languidly, but that also did not have an in-system manifestation (like eg a AW clock) beyond me vaguely calling the passing of ingame time.

Given the lack of mechanical support for this, in a group that was far more determined to "never split the party" I think there may not have been so much of an Alien feel to the scenario. Though maybe under those hypothetical circumstances I would have remembered to use the morale rules which might have forced a party split at some key moments.

5e D&D doesn't have any way I know of to force a splitting of the party - not even morale rules, I think - and is missing a number of my asterisked features (eg all D&D PCs are, by default, combat capable; it doesn't have space-y elements by default; and as a FRPG it tends towards the Star Wars-y end of the gritty-to-gonzo spectrum). So I'm really not persuaded that it can do an Alien-like scenario.

It is very simple. The same way I would do it any system. Give them two different tasks that need to be completed at the same time.

  • The ships detonation sequence has started - controlled from the bridge.
  • The escape pod will take one hour to prep for launch.

There’s a much reduced chance the pod will escape if the ship detonates. But if you can’t stop the detonation you are going to need the pod ready to launch. Simple. It’s the same way it’s been done time and time again.

[Edited] to avoid a railroad.
 
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TheSword

Legend
I didn't say it couldn't be sci fi, I said it couldn't be Aliens. It's not about flying the ship either, specifically, but it is about repairing the ship, dealing with hard vacuum, wearing space suits and a bunch of other ship related stuff. If I'd meant just flying the ship I would have said so, so maybe put that 'ludicrous' of yours back in it's sheath until you have something appropriate to use it on. Also, not to belabour the obvious, but what parts of the Aliens movies happen without interstellar travel? None, that's how many parts. It's a key element.
Yes it’s background noise. The protagonists don’t fly the ships as a general rule.

Anyway flying a ship - tool proficiency ship 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

TheSword

Legend
Another thing about splitting up the party in Classic Traveller: most of the PCs are carrying communicators, which means that the players can talk to one another not only at the table but in character, which means that when one PC is running screaming the other PCs know what is happening and so there can be a sort-of party play even though the party is separated.

This also supports the way in which the narrative experience of a RPG differs from that of a film: when a player's PC runs screaming, and then we at the table establish that the screams will carry over the PC's communicator, the other players don't just have their personal real world reaction of wondering what's going to happen to the running PC; they can also have their playing their PC reaction, of declaring an action in response for their PC.

This interplay of the equipment list, the ingame capacities of the PCs, and how these support the players at the table feeding their reactions back into their game play, isn't a default part of D&D. And I'm not fully persuaded that someone whose main play experience was with D&D would necessarily think of it in advance as something to allow for in their Alien scenario based around low-level fighters and rogues.
If they go down the Dark Heresy route, all sorts of other options become possible.
 

pemerton

Legend
It is very simple. The same way I would do it any system. Give them two different tasks that need to be completed at the same time.

  • You must shut off the detonation sequence.
  • You must prepare the escape pod launch.

There’s a much reduced chance the pod will escape if the ship detonates. But if you can’t stop the detonation you are going to need the pod ready to launch. Simple. It’s the same way it’s been done time and time again.
The greater the railroad, the less system matters. This has already been established in this thread and its sister one.
 


Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I by no means need to include everything in a campaign for it to be a suitable campaign. The dark heresy rules had no options for space marines as PCs. I could create a space marine NPC using 5e without breaking a sweat. The rules for Star ships also weren’t present. If I needed a smaller vehicle - speeder, or gun cutter the 5e rules for vehicles enable that. If I use a star ship it’s a location.

Unfortunately with your talk of ‘forcing a story’ you are just demonstrating poor sportsmanship. You asked me to show how I would run a 5e campaign set in a gritty, sci-fi horror setting. Dark Heresy admirable fills that setting.
You shifted the pea from "game" to "specific instance of an idea." The idea that 5e can do gritty futuristic sci-fi horror (hereafter gfsfh) is incorrect -- it cannot. The idea that you can crib out a play session or eight from a specific concept that vaguely does gfsfh is not the same thing. This is, as I noted, a category error -- you're claiming a skateboard is the same as a car, because it has four wheels. The car has more. A specific, highly curated "campaign" (itself a vague term) is not the same as a game that can do gfsfh.
 


Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Man, you just waved a red flag in front of a lot of riled-up bulls.
??? I agree with the statement, but not as a "system doesn't matter" point, but as tacit acknowledgement that system does matter and, when it's misbehaving, you need to ignore it. If you didn't, it wouldn't matter.
 


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