Jon Peterson: Does System Matter?

D&D historian Jon Peterson asks the question on his blog as he does a deep dive into how early tabletop RPG enthusiasts wrestled with the same thing. Based around the concept that 'D&D can do anything, so why learn a new system?', the conversation examines whether the system itself affects the playstyle of those playing it. Some systems are custom-designed to create a certain atmosphere (see...

D&D historian Jon Peterson asks the question on his blog as he does a deep dive into how early tabletop RPG enthusiasts wrestled with the same thing.

Based around the concept that 'D&D can do anything, so why learn a new system?', the conversation examines whether the system itself affects the playstyle of those playing it. Some systems are custom-designed to create a certain atmosphere (see Dread's suspenseful Jenga-tower narrative game), and Call of Cthulhu certainly discourages the D&D style of play, despite a d20 version in early 2000s.


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Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
So a game with no space ship rules, no space ship gear, no space ship skills and, in fact, no space-related rules at all is just 'kind of poor' at Aliens? You'll pardon me if that doesn't really cross the finish line IMO. You might get half-baked sci fi out of that, but Aliens it isn't. I get what you're trying to say, and in cases that are less of a stretch I'd agree, but this isn't one of those cases.
 

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TheSword

Legend
No, they aren't just weird settings. This is only true if you're main approach is to wing it or force story. If you're forcing story, then, sure, system doesn't matter as much because that's not how the game is actually being adjudicated.

Can you do Space Marines? Dark Eldar Dying Sun Battleships raiding an Imperium convoy defended by Gothic-Class cruisers? Or are you claiming that, if you limit the players to only certain selections of class/race/build that you can managed to pass with a specific adventure path? The latter is the claim you're making, but the former are parts of that grander gritty futuristic sci-fi horror settings -- the bits 5e can't do. What you're engaged in is called special pleading, and it's where you ignore examples that don't fit your argument and only focus on the few that do.
I by no means need to include everything in a campaign for it to be a suitable campaign. The dark heresy rules had no options for space marines as PCs. I could create a space marine NPC using 5e without breaking a sweat. The rules for Star ships also weren’t present. If I needed a smaller vehicle - speeder, or gun cutter the 5e rules for vehicles enable that. If I use a star ship it’s a location.

Unfortunately with your talk of ‘forcing a story’ you are just demonstrating poor sportsmanship. You asked me to show how I would run a 5e campaign set in a gritty, sci-fi horror setting. Dark Heresy admirable fills that setting.
 

pemerton

Legend
Show me, using the PHB, how I would run ship-to-ship combat with triremes and ballistae.

<snip>

Sometimes you've just got to hand-wave, make stuff up, or create new game mechanics, even to do things that are definitely within the purview of D&D's genre.
This is one reason why I find the purported versatility of D&D rather overrated.

In the current "Worlds of Design: War" thread there isn't a lot of discussion of fighting battles (land or naval) in D&D. Gygax's DMG had rules for the latter, but they effectively weld on a set of wargame rules that include rules for how D&D elements (like fireballs) are to be adjudicated in the wargame context.

It's perfectly possible to have a FRPG that does seamlessly handle naval battles and naval command as much as Conan-esque or Moria-esque one-on-one skirmishes. But D&D isn't really an example, though 4e gets closest I think.
 

So a game with no space ship rules, no space ship gear, no space ship skills and, in fact, no space-related rules at all is just 'kind of poor' at Aliens? You'll pardon me if that doesn't really cross the finish line IMO. You might get half-baked sci fi out of that, but Aliens it isn't. I get what you're trying to say, and in cases that are less of a stretch I'd agree, but this isn't one of those cases.
I brought in Aliens as a joke - intending to imply that the average D&D adventuring party would make good stand-ins for the xenomorphs.
 

TheSword

Legend
So a game with no space ship rules, no space ship gear, no space ship skills and, in fact, no space-related rules at all is just 'kind of poor' at Aliens? You'll pardon me if that doesn't really cross the finish line IMO. You might get half-baked sci fi out of that, but Aliens it isn't. I get what you're trying to say, and in cases that are less of a stretch I'd agree, but this isn't one of those cases.
It’s ludicrous to suggest that a setting can’t be sci-fi if it doesn’t give the PCs control over interstellar star ships. Ludicrous.

The Thing, Blade Runner, Pitch Black, Species, Terminator, Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Absolutely ludicrous.

How much interstellar ship flying gets done by the protagoniats in Alien, Aliens or Alien 3? The drop ship... easily modeled with the vehicle rules.
 

Jack Daniel

dice-universe.blogspot.com
Claims that things are easy without actually doing them are cheap and not convincing. What you're imagining are a few things that you have a quick solution to (one of which is "handwave") and failing to understand how the system would need to interconnect and change.

If you do find this easy, then use 5e to do the same thing that Monsterhearts does -- angsty monster melodrama that centers around adolescents discovering sexuality. Don't just handwave it!

I'm sorry, but you don't get to just handwave handwaving. Knowing when not to use any rules at all is an essential part of running any RPG system effecitvely.
 

pemerton

Legend
A bit over a year ago I ran an Alien-inspired Classic Traveller session.

Keeping in mind the points @Campbell and @Neonchameleon have made about both technical elements of system, and more fundamental/underlying processes of play, I want to try and itemise some of what was needed to make this work:

* Classic Traveller is a sci-fi game, in the sense that space, starships, astronauts, skills for dealing with technology, etc are all part of it by default.

* Classic Traveller is quite non-Star Wars in its fiction - the main weapons are firearms, the most common armour is ballistic cloth, etc, ships can travel FTL but can't cross the galaxy in hours or days, and not even in a single longer voyage. This means that the system, played in accordance with the spirit and genre that it presents, won't generate action declarations from the players that are radically out-of-context for Alien.

* Classic Traveller easily generates PCs whose main field of expertise is not fighting, and indeed who are not very impressive physically at all. And this isn't just about "fluff" descriptions - it feeds into the resolution framework. It is not hard to generate a Traveller PC who will fall down unconscious or even dead if shot; who is no match for a leopard in hand-to-hand fighting; etc. This is important for Alien because it means that there are some PCs whose players will recognise that they are no match, in combat, for the Alien. So they will have to run or call for help or something similar.

* Classic Traveller has fully integrated animal generation rules, which make it easy to mechanically stat up the Alien and put it into mechanical as well as fictional motion in the game.

* Classic Traveller gives the referee a lot of authority to establish the initial fiction. In the context of this particular scenario, it is easy for me as referee to decide that the abandoned ship the PCs are investigating has Aliens on board. It's also easy for me to introduce elements of the framing that give clues and establish the "feel" of the possibility of some sort of "unexpected" threat.

* Classic Traveller has pretty good rules for determining encounter surprise and encounter range which mean that, once I decide that the PCs encounter an alien on the ship, things move out of the realm of GM fiat and into the realm of mechanics. This allows PC expertise to factor in (eg one player had his PC spend money to train in Tactics, which gives her a benefit to avoid surprise), and generally reduces the sense of GM-choosing-to-hose-the-players.

* Classic Traveller has player-side morale rules, which would help establish some feel, but on this occasion I forgot to use them! It didn't matter because we had fleeing PCs due to rational player choice without the need for any help from the dice!​

Here's one thing which I think is crucial to Alien but doesn't really have a system element in Classic Traveller to support it: the PCs split up.

This was an important part of the scenario I GMed, but it wasn't generated via application of the rules. (Contrast, say, MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic or Apocalypse World/Dungeon World, which allow splitting or joining the party as clearly-identified GM moves.)

Rather, the party being split up was an emergent consequence of equipment rationing (there were only so many vacc suits in the PCs' vessel's ship's locker) and then player decision-making about who was good at what and hence should perform what task in exploring the abandoned ship. I had established a "clock" - an approaching Imperial naval cutter also seeking to interdict the abandoned ship - which generated a bit of in-fiction pressure for the players to move quickly rather than languidly, but that also did not have an in-system manifestation (like eg a AW clock) beyond me vaguely calling the passing of ingame time.

Given the lack of mechanical support for this, in a group that was far more determined to "never split the party" I think there may not have been so much of an Alien feel to the scenario. Though maybe under those hypothetical circumstances I would have remembered to use the morale rules which might have forced a party split at some key moments.

5e D&D doesn't have any way I know of to force a splitting of the party - not even morale rules, I think - and is missing a number of my asterisked features (eg all D&D PCs are, by default, combat capable; it doesn't have space-y elements by default; and as a FRPG it tends towards the Star Wars-y end of the gritty-to-gonzo spectrum). So I'm really not persuaded that it can do an Alien-like scenario.
 


Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
It’s ludicrous to suggest that a setting can’t be sci-fi if it doesn’t give the PCs control over interstellar star ships. Ludicrous.

The Thing, Blade Runner, Pitch Black, Species, Terminator, Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Absolutely ludicrous.

How much interstellar ship flying gets done by the protagoniats in Alien, Aliens or Alien 3? The drop ship... easily modeled with the vehicle rules.
I didn't say it couldn't be sci fi, I said it couldn't be Aliens. It's not about flying the ship either, specifically, but it is about repairing the ship, dealing with hard vacuum, wearing space suits and a bunch of other ship related stuff. If I'd meant just flying the ship I would have said so, so maybe put that 'ludicrous' of yours back in it's sheath until you have something appropriate to use it on. Also, not to belabour the obvious, but what parts of the Aliens movies happen without interstellar travel? None, that's how many parts. It's a key element.
 

I'm sorry, but you don't get to just handwave handwaving. Knowing when not to use any rules at all is an essential part of running any RPG system effecitvely.
I'm sorry, but @Campbell isn't the one handwaving handwaving here. Knowing when not to use any rules at all is only an essential part of running any RPG where the underlying approach to game design is rules-as-physics-engine.

Other paradigms are rules-as-user-interface and rules-for-conflict-resolution. It's only really rules-as-physics-engine where you have to stop using the rules because physics engines break easily either through out of bounds errors or outside context problems.
 

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