Jon Peterson: Does System Matter?

D&D historian Jon Peterson asks the question on his blog as he does a deep dive into how early tabletop RPG enthusiasts wrestled with the same thing.

Based around the concept that 'D&D can do anything, so why learn a new system?', the conversation examines whether the system itself affects the playstyle of those playing it. Some systems are custom-designed to create a certain atmosphere (see Dread's suspenseful Jenga-tower narrative game), and Call of Cthulhu certainly discourages the D&D style of play, despite a d20 version in early 2000s.


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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I think it's hard to really understand how different a system can be without ever interacting with truly different systems.
This. I had gotten a pretty good theoretical grounding in a lot of the above discussed techniques during the Edition Wars, but it took playing a few sessions of FATE for it to truly make sense. It's really like having a light bulb go off when it finally clicks.
 

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This. I had gotten a pretty good theoretical grounding in a lot of the above discussed techniques during the Edition Wars, but it took playing a few sessions of FATE for it to truly make sense. It's really like having a light bulb go off when it finally clicks.
Yup. I've said it before but I always love a chance to reiterate:

The groking and acceptance/embrace of 4e would have been a different deal if (a) Mouse Guard was released several years before (rather than same year) or Blades/DW had been released before 4e and (b) the D&D cultural collective had played those games and enjoyed them.

At the very least Skill Challenges would have been understood and run proficiently and the uptake of scene-based Dungeons and Dragons wouldn't have been such a hitch.

Dogs would have been fantastic "training wheels", but it was 4 years before 4e and its a different beast than D&D (while MG, DW, BitD are very kindred in multiple ways).
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
Yup. I've said it before but I always love a chance to reiterate:

The groking and acceptance/embrace of 4e would have been a different deal if (a) Mouse Guard was released several years before (rather than same year) or Blades/DW had been released before 4e and (b) the D&D cultural collective had played those games and enjoyed them.

At the very least Skill Challenges would have been understood and run proficiently and the uptake of scene-based Dungeons and Dragons wouldn't have been such a hitch.

Dogs would have been fantastic "training wheels", but it was 4 years before 4e and its a different beast than D&D (while MG, DW, BitD are very kindred in multiple ways).
I'm not so sure if a difference in the release dates of the games you mention would have made as much difference in the reception of 4E as you seem to believe. If they'd existed and been accepted and talked about as "something other than D&D" maybe it would have been clear that sort of game design wouldn't fly with D&D players (as D&D) and 4E would have been different, but that's going down a parallel universe rabbit hole.
 

I'm not so sure if a difference in the release dates of the games you mention would have made as much difference in the reception of 4E as you seem to believe. If they'd existed and been accepted and talked about as "something other than D&D" maybe it would have been clear that sort of game design wouldn't fly with D&D players (as D&D) and 4E would have been different, but that's going down a parallel universe rabbit hole.

See the (b) embedded in the quoted text above :)
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Yup. I've said it before but I always love a chance to reiterate:

The groking and acceptance/embrace of 4e would have been a different deal if (a) Mouse Guard was released several years before (rather than same year) or Blades/DW had been released before 4e and (b) the D&D cultural collective had played those games and enjoyed them.

At the very least Skill Challenges would have been understood and run proficiently and the uptake of scene-based Dungeons and Dragons wouldn't have been such a hitch.

Dogs would have been fantastic "training wheels", but it was 4 years before 4e and its a different beast than D&D (while MG, DW, BitD are very kindred in multiple ways).
Alt-universe, I think they could have snuck in the more Story Now and Fortune-in-the-Middle aspects of 4e if they had kept more of the 3e trappings. More warblade-y. I think you can sneak in different techniques to GM-focused play groups with familiar presentation, sort of like introducing vegetables to kids. :)
 


Fair enough. I was thinking there's a difference between enjoying, e.g., Mouse Guard, and thinking D&D should play more like Mouse Guard.

There is for sure.

My thoughts on this are thus:

1) Despite what some people think is “the soul” of D&D, it’s actually had multiple, distinct instantiations over it’s almost 50 years.

* Though very kindred, OD&D and troupe based, pawn stance Wargaming is distinct from Moldvay Basic Dungeon Crawling.

* Moldvay Basic Dungeon Crawling is distinct from Expert (and on) and 1e Hex Crawling and Sandboxing.

* Expert (and on) and 1e Hex Crawling and Sandboxing is distinct from 2e and 3.x Storyteller/Metaplot/AP play.

* 4e Scene Based, Story Now is distinct from 2e and 3.x Storyteller/Metaplot/AP play.

* 5e is back to the 2e and 3.x Storyteller/Metaplot/AP play.

2) Given that the above is true, the assertion that there is a unifying “soul of D&D” (typically under that 2e/3.x/ 5e Storyteller/Metaplot/AP play) is verifiably not true.

3) If that isn’t true, then what is the nature of “soul of D&D”? Is it the genre/milieu? Is it particular mechanical artifacts? Is it the dungeon? Is it the dragon? Is it the strategic play centered around Adventuring Day vs Loadout and controlling that recharge? Is it compelling combat encounters, puzzles, parlreys, and explorations? Is it player orientation toward PC(s)? Is it play priorities and principles? Is it authority distribution?

Depending upon your edition lens, it’s a different. A moving target. If that’s the case (that D&D has dynamically changed much more than its given credit for), who is to say where the fault line of “lost its soul” lies?
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
My thoughts on this are thus:

1) Despite what some people think is “the soul” of D&D, it’s actually had multiple, distinct instantiations over it’s almost 50 years.

* Though very kindred, OD&D and troupe based, pawn stance Wargaming is distinct from Moldvay Basic Dungeon Crawling.

* Moldvay Basic Dungeon Crawling is distinct from Expert (and on) and 1e Hex Crawling and Sandboxing.

* Expert (and on) and 1e Hex Crawling and Sandboxing is distinct from 2e and 3.x Storyteller/Metaplot/AP play.

* 4e Scene Based, Story Now is distinct from 2e and 3.x Storyteller/Metaplot/AP play.

* 5e is back to the 2e and 3.x Storyteller/Metaplot/AP play.

2) Given that the above is true, the assertion that there is a unifying “soul of D&D” (typically under that 2e/3.x/ 5e Storyteller/Metaplot/AP play) is verifiably not true.

3) If that isn’t true, then what is the nature of “soul of D&D”? Is it the genre/milieu? Is it particular mechanical artifacts? Is it the dungeon? Is it the dragon? Is it the strategic play centered around Adventuring Day vs Loadout and controlling that recharge? Is it compelling combat encounters, puzzles, parlreys, and explorations? Is it player orientation toward PC(s)? Is it play priorities and principles? Is it authority distribution?

Depending upon your edition lens, it’s a different. A moving target. If that’s the case (that D&D has dynamically changed much more than its given credit for), who is to say where the fault line of “lost its soul” lies?
1) My experience is mostly in 1E, 3.x (including PF1E) and 5E. The people I played 1E with, played it in a much more story-oriented way, both before and after 2E was out. I found 3.x to have a similar focus, though the APs weren't anything I ever really engaged with (because published adventures don't make sense to me in my brain) and to me it seemed as though it brought the character build in to D&D, which was something I knew from point-based games like Champions (I gather there are elements of this in late 2E, but ... I never played with those). I've found that 5E has less focus on the character build than 3.x (some people will think this is good, some bad) and unlike 3.x intra-party balance is a thing into the higher levels. The versions I've played had more unity of feel than you seem to ascribe to D&D (possibly because you have experience with editions I don't). Even back in the days of 1E, I was never a huge fan of dungeoncrawls or hexcrawls.

2) Leaving aside the fact I have never played 4E, given that I found there to be more unity in my experiences of D&D prior to 4E, it'd probably be unsurprising if I found a game so radically different from my prior experiences of D&D to be "not-D&D."

3) I wouldn't say D&D has "lost its soul," even when talking about editions not to my taste. For me, D&D has always been about the stories that emerge from play--I'm pretty sure I've said elsewhere the stories that emerge from play are the point of play, and I stand by that. The mechanical artifacts--what I think of as "legacy stuff"--are more about the game always using similar language, even if that language evolves over time (this has me thinking about Chaucer and Middle English and Modern English, but even the more-recent loss of the distinction between less and fewer is an evolution, sort of). I think stories can emerge from play, with ... if not every possible authority distribution, then at least most of the likely ones; I think stories can (and should) include whatever the players (and the DM) find to be compelling at the time--I think the fact that a D&D story (campaign) can shift from (among others) object-quest to mystery to location-defense to special-ops raids is a strength of the game, and something that is missing from the more narrowly-focused games that seem to be indie-darlings: Blades in the Dark seems to me to only want to tell one type of story, as does Apocalypse World. I guess if I were going to say what D&D's soul is, I'd say it's this flexibility.

I don't deny that D&D is (or can be) a moving target. Even 5E alone is, because there is so much room for tables to play it differently--my tables almost certainly run differently than anyone else's--but I think that's a strength of the game, not a weakness (though I'll admit it makes it difficult to talk about the game forensically or analytically). That's most of the reason I've stopped (well, mostly stopped :) ) arguing about 5E with people who base their opinions of 5E on the written rules and haven't played it.

I guess D&D is kinda like a shuffle-beat, which ... the line I've heard is that every shuffle-beat is a negotiation between the drummer and the bassist. Every D&D game/table is a negotiation among the people there.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
@prabe

When I look at D&D I do not see a less focused game than something like Apocalypse World or Blades in the Dark. I get the idea of the hyper focused indie game, but that's not what I see in something like Apocalypse World. A game like Torchbearer is really specific. I think many D&D fans look at something like Blades and see it as narrow because it's different - not because it's more constrained.

I think (the royal) you get accustomed to tropes and process of play of something like D&D and that becomes the prism through which you see stories and gaming. That's not a bad thing. You have an approach to play that works for you. I just do not believe it's inherently more flexible.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
When I look at D&D I do not see a less focused game than something like Apocalypse World or Blades in the Dark. I get the idea of the hyper focused indie game, but that's not what I see in something like Apocalypse World. A game like Torchbearer is really specific. I think many D&D fans look at something like Blades and see it as narrow because it's different - not because it's more constrained.
I look at Blades in the Dark, and I see a game tightly focused on heists, and on crews advancing. I don't see much in the rules to allow for many other types of stories to emerge.

I look at D&D, and I see a game that does clearly make some presumptions, but seems to allow for more kinds of stories to emerge from play.

It's plausible that this is more about how you and I see the games, than about anything inherent to the games.
I think (the royal) you get accustomed to tropes and process of play of something like D&D and that becomes the prism through which you see stories and gaming. That's not a bad thing. You have an approach to play that works for you. I just do not believe it's inherently more flexible.
I do not doubt that comfort level with a game (and with its processes and tropes) can make it seem more flexible than a game one isn't as comfortable with. I kinda envy people whose brains work to allow them to run more than one game at a time; mine doesn't work that way.
 
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