Jonathan Tweet denounces Power Attack

[Klaus]

Really excellent point.

Although the flavour was 'wild powerful swings', the mechanics are simply reduce your chance to hit in order to cause more damage, and this could equally be achieved by simulating aiming at a chink in the armour or a slightly more vital location as KB suggests.

None of the DMs I game with used the 3.5e power attack, we completely stuck with the 3.0e version (I think it was the only 3.5e change we didn't use).

Cheers

How's about "reduce attack to increase threat range"? Call it, I dunno, Precisie Strike, and have Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite, and it can't be used with Power Attack and Combat Expertise.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I think Tweet is overreacting. I've used, and DM'd, 3.5 PA in many games, and in no case did I find it broken, nor did it slow the game down any more than any other damage mechanic in the game. I encouraged players to pre-calculate some set PA levels and write them on their sheet, and then it works like any other attack. It did encourage more two-handed weapons in play, but that was a nice change from what would have otherwise been a bunch of sword-and-shields.

Can it be used for some sort of spreadsheet-based horror? Sure, and if some players find it fun to do that, more power to them. I suspect that's more the exception than the rule. I've personally seen more all-power-attack-all-the-time. And in my opinion, an game element that allows for multiple styles of play is a good thing for players.

For the DM, it wasn't much more complicated, and it made a range of monsters much more impressive.

I'm starting to see too much from the 4E team that seems like they are changing what isn't broken just for the sake of change.

 

[Najo]

I think Tweet is overreacting. I've used, and DM'd, 3.5 PA in many games, and in no case did I find it broken, nor did it slow the game down any more than any other damage mechanic in the game. I encouraged players to pre-calculate some set PA levels and write them on their sheet, and then it works like any other attack. It did encourage more two-handed weapons in play, but that was a nice change from what would have otherwise been a bunch of sword-and-shields.

Can it be used for some sort of spreadsheet-based horror? Sure, and if some players find it fun to do that, more power to them. I suspect that's more the exception than the rule. I've personally seen more all-power-attack-all-the-time. And in my opinion, an game element that allows for multiple styles of play is a good thing for players.

For the DM, it wasn't much more complicated, and it made a range of monsters much more impressive.

I'm starting to see too much from the 4E team that seems like they are changing what isn't broken just for the sake of change.

They are making changes that speed up play and remove metagaming, both of which are good. Power attack can be fixed to work with these interests in mind.

 

[Najo]

How about this:



Power Attack (pre: Str 13+)

You may choose to use power attack as a full-round action. Make a single melee attack. If the attack hits your foe, add a damage bonus to your attack equal to the amount your attack roll is greater than your foe's armor class. If your attack misses, your opponent may make an attack of opportunity against you.

You may only use this feat once per round.


Or you can do this:

You may choose to use power attack as a full-round action. Make a single melee attack. If your attack hits your foe, you automatically cause a critical hit. If your attack misses, your opponent may make an attack of opportunity against you.

You may only use this feat once per round.

I like feedback on these two ideas. How do they stack up to fixing the problem? Pros and cons please.

 

[amethal]

Some players should simply not be allowed to play certain characters.

For instance, a character who uses a bastard sword, sometimes in one hand and sometimes in two, sometimes raging, sometimes polymorphed should only be allowed to take power attack if either his mental arithmetic is up to the challenge or his notes are very good.

Otherwise, the game slows down to a crawl.

However, power attack is just one of many contributing factors.

 

[BryonD]

Really excellent point.

Although the flavour was 'wild powerful swings', the mechanics are simply reduce your chance to hit in order to cause more damage, and this could equally be achieved by simulating aiming at a chink in the armour or a slightly more vital location as KB suggests.

Cheers

I disagree. For one thing, there is a difference between flavor and design intent.

Further, I don't see flat damage bonuses as capturing the vital spot feel nearly as well as the wild powerful swings feel. A complimetary feat that added sneak attack dice or improved critical hit effects would be a better match for "vital location" attacks. Obviously, opinions vary, but that is how I see it.

More on the main topic, I have loved PA in both 3E and 3.5 incarnations and it has added a lot of fun to the game. But the concept can certainly be captured other ways, so I won't assume anything negative toward 4E yet.

I do find myself tired of the WotC decrying of 3X stuff. Did they (or just Tweet) think PA sucked for a long time and simply wasn't up to the task to addressing it or even admitting it? Or has the desire to sell 4E influenced a sudden insight? Either way it is pretty shallow. There are spots that I've felt 3X needed improvement for a while. But my level of interest in 4E has had no bearing on that opinion. It certainly makes it hard to believe anything else that they say. And it also makes it hard to defend WotC's quite reasonable choices from the attacks of the "WotC is just a money-grabbing corporation out to pull one on you" fringe.

 

[Wolfspider]

How about this:



Power Attack (pre: Str 13+)

You may choose to use power attack as a full-round action. Make a single melee attack. If the attack hits your foe, add a damage bonus to your attack equal to the amount your attack roll is greater than your foe's armor class. If your attack misses, your opponent may make an attack of opportunity against you.

You may only use this feat once per round.


Or you can do this:

You may choose to use power attack as a full-round action. Make a single melee attack. If your attack hits your foe, you automatically cause a critical hit. If your attack misses, your opponent may make an attack of opportunity against you.

You may only use this feat once per round.

Wow! These are really good! You should post them in the House Rules forum as well.

Thanks!

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I think this is one situation where overly enthusiastic power gamers are more to blame for any slow downs in game play. It isn't the feat's fault if you're constantly spending 5 minutes a turn trying to squeak out that last 0.10 HP of damage.

Yeah, this is sort of like saying Gather Information is a bad skill because your local drama whore wants to dig up dirt on EVRY. SINGLE. NPC.

The feat is fine.

 

[glass]

Sigh. Another "fix" to something that never arose as broken at my gaming table.

Why do people keep saying that? Does everyone really think that their table is the only one that matters?


glass.

 

[TerraDave]

5 pages in less then 24 hours. I think its time for:

a poll!