Jonathan Tweet denounces Power Attack

[Baby Samurai]

Why do people keep saying that? Does everyone really think that their table is the only one that matters?

Yep, just like people feel that WotC releasing 4th Ed is a personal, vindictive move to rape their wallets and ruin their gaming experience…

 

[glass]

But, doing the math for -5 to hit, +5/+10 damage? That totally and completely blows my mind.

Except -5 to hit does not add +10 damage. It adds +10 to damage on a successful hit. Since you have to decide to use it (and for how much) before you roll to hit, you need to figure out how much it adds to (or subtracts from) expected damage. Which is a lot more complicated -requiring you to figure out your damage from other sources know the AC of your target.

Funny how, with the maths apparently being so simple, you didn't get it right, eh?


glass.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I disagree. For one thing, there is a difference between flavor and design intent.

True.

I think the 3.5 revisers mixed the two up. In 3.0 it was a flavour thing (hence there was no mechanical difference), the 3.5 revisers decided to make it a design intent (hence the change to bar light weapons and boost 2H weapons (as if it were needed)).

I think the 3.0 designers were right (and to be honest they had a stack of a lot more playtesting behind them too)

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Further, I don't see flat damage bonuses as capturing the vital spot feel nearly as well as the wild powerful swings feel. A complimetary feat that added sneak attack dice or improved critical hit effects would be a better match for "vital location" attacks. Obviously, opinions vary, but that is how I see it.

Seems like adding an extra layer of complication to the mechanic for the same end result (more damage). Making the feats balanced would require that when the "power critical" did hit and damage happened to be high, it would massively exceed the average every hit effect of power attack, leading to complaints about it being broken. If the critical damage only caught up to PA at maximum, it would be a useless feat the vast majority of the time.

Damage is damage and as we are constantly told is abstract and can be described many ways. Let the swashbuckler do some damage without jumping through extra hoops for it. (Not that I have anything against a "power critical" type feat but I don't see the need to limit it's availability anymore than I do PA.)

 

[Mercule]

Except -5 to hit does not add +10 damage. It adds +10 to damage on a successful hit. Since you have to decide to use it (and for how much) before you roll to hit, you need to figure out how much it adds to (or subtracts from) expected damage. Which is a lot more complicated -requiring you to figure out your damage from other sources know the AC of your target.

Funny how, with the maths apparently being so simple, you didn't get it right, eh?

I suppose it depends on what math you're talking about. If you want to include the probability, then that has no place at the table. I've run the numbers for players who wanted to use Power Attack, Combat Expertise, etc. Do an Excel sheet with columns for enemy ACs at 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 (or a subset, depending on PC level), blah blah.

In play, you go with your gut. If you need the spreadsheet to feed your gut, do that away from the table. Please don't even bring the spreadsheet to play because you're slowing things down. So, from my perspective, I did get the math right -- at least the only math that should be able to slow down the game.

If you've got someone running specific probabilities at the table, the issue isn't with Power Attack. The issue is with rude players. The same as when the caster doesn't look up his spell until after he's cast it -- or asks the GM what the spell does.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Solves very little.

Solves the problem that was specified-- fiddly math at the table. Do the math once, write it down, problem solved.

An optimized build then deals far too much damage for a character of his level and the non optimized character never hits.

I wasn't aware that non-optimized builds rolled d19's. My dice still have 20's.

And make no mistake, damage dealing feats in 4E will be far more in line with Weapon specialization rather than power attack.

And make no mistake, they'll be far more in line with Iron Fist than Weapon Specialization or Power Attack. Not sliding bonuses, not fixed bonuses, but more dice to roll.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

And often, a lot of that extra damage is just wasted, as your foe would have been just as dead if you have inlficted 15 fewer hit points of damage.

Actually, as it turns out, it's most typically useful on creatures with really low AC and big bags of hit points-- giants, vermin, animals, zombies, oozes (although less fun without criticals). It's a big list of viable options. So, not usually wasted, no.

Fun as all hell, though. That's the main thing. The point is to maximize the fun, not the math.

 

[frankthedm]

I do find myself tired of the WotC decrying of 3X stuff. Did they (or just Tweet) think PA sucked for a long time and simply wasn't up to the task to addressing it or even admitting it?

They admitted that the two for one may have been too much a while after 3.5 was released. In the same commentary they explained the original plan was a two handed weapon wielder to get 1 for 1.5 with power attack, but at the time decided the math may to troublesome.

Or has the desire to sell 4E influenced a sudden insight?

It damn well better! They are playing Profits or Pink Slips with Hasbro. It plays a lot like Papers and Paychecks, but Hasbro is the frenzied berserker with a +5 Job-Bane, Mighty Cleaving Great Axe. If the profits don’t show, lots of folks and their friends will be out of jobs.

It certainly makes it hard to believe anything else that they say. And it also makes it hard to defend WotC's quite reasonable choices from the attacks of the "WotC is just a money-grabbing corporation out to pull one on you" fringe.

I’m on that fringe myself, it just so happens I love a lot of their changes for 4E. Their products should be enjoyed, provided they are enjoyable, but trust the puppet of a megacorp like hasborg? No.

 

[frankthedm]

I wasn't aware that non-optimized builds rolled d19's. My dice still have 20's.

FPAATT can still be hitting without the autohit 20's. Notably if built and buffed for it. Heck, by taking a monster race with a highstr and mild ECL, you keep your BAB from being too much of your attack bonus. So even IF you FPAATT, your 'to hit' can't suffer as much as if you were a human with most 'to hit' coming from BAB.

And make no mistake, they'll be far more in line with Iron Fist than Weapon Specialization or Power Attack. Not sliding bonuses, not fixed bonuses, but more dice to roll.

That the bonuses will likly be more dice, I'll agree.

 

[glass]

I suppose it depends on what math you're talking about. If you want to include the probability, then that has no place at the table. I've run the numbers for players who wanted to use Power Attack, Combat Expertise, etc. Do an Excel sheet with columns for enemy ACs at 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 (or a subset, depending on PC level), blah blah.

In play, you go with your gut. If you need the spreadsheet to feed your gut, do that away from the table. Please don't even bring the spreadsheet to play because you're slowing things down. So, from my perspective, I did get the math right -- at least the only math that should be able to slow down the game.

If you've got someone running specific probabilities at the table, the issue isn't with Power Attack. The issue is with rude players. The same as when the caster doesn't look up his spell until after he's cast it -- or asks the GM what the spell does.

Yes, it is. You can't work it out in advance, because the calculation requires your damage from other sources and the AC of the target.

To get real benefit from the feat requires that you do that, which slows the game to a crawl. Alternatively, you can take a punt and guess, but if you do that there is a good chance that the feats you have spent one of your precious feat slots on is actually making you worse. Either way, there is a problem -and that problem is the direct result of the feat's working the way it does.


glass.