Jonathan Tweet denounces Power Attack

[Remathilis]

Perhaps it will be replaced with brutal swing from Saga

Brutal Swing (Str 13) -2 to hit, +1d8 damage.

 

[Wolfspider]

Yes, it is. You can't work it out in advance, because the calculation requires your damage from other sources and the AC of the target.

I'm sorry, glass, I really don't understand what you mean here. You CAN work it out in advance. I've seen it done.

And I really don't know what you are meaning to argue when you said:

Except -5 to hit does not add +10 damage. It adds +10 to damage on a successful hit.

Uhhh...of course you only get the damage bonus when you hit. That's how the combat system works...a hit equals damage.

Maybe I've just attended one too many meetings today....

 

[ThirdWizard]

I haven't noticed anybody with my main complaint about Power Attack. It's far more useful for monsters than for PCs. It can take a giant and increase his damage output by insane amounts. But, every time I see a PC use PA for more than -2 or so, they inevitably miss with iteratives by a small amount and end up doing less overall damage. But, man, that stone giant whollops the PCs something fierce!

Uhhh...of course you only get the damage bonus when you hit. That's how the combat system works...a hit equals damage.

Maybe I've just attended one too many meetings today....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the point is that, because your to hit goes down, your average damage increase will be a derived number that is based off of the new chance to hit and the new damage you will be doing.

Some people see -5 attack to do +10 damage. Some people see a decrease in the likelihood to hit by 12%, thereby decreasing damage, along with an increase in damage dealt that will have to offset this 12% less damage you are initially accepting.

Ironically, I see it this way and I'm also one of the people that sucks at basic math. I can't subtract to save my life. I have to use excel to do all this stuff for me. I aced Calculus, though. Go figure.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

FPAATT can still be hitting without the autohit 20's.

I know. So why would you say "never?" At worst you hit on a natural 20. And even if you're not Johnny Mathist, most folks know that 5% is not never.

Notably if built and buffed for it. Heck, by taking a monster race with a highstr and mild ECL, you keep your BAB from being too much of your attack bonus. So even IF you FPAATT, your 'to hit' can't suffer as much as if you were a human with most 'to hit' coming from BAB.

Even a human typically has a total attack bonus in excess of his BAB, without resort to any particular "optimization."

In fact, it can take until the late mid-levels for raw BAB to even catch up to those bonuses.

You'll probably have to define "optimized" and/or "never."

Is an 18 STR optimized? 16 STR? Weapon Focus? Bard songs, Bull's strength, Enlarge Person, Bless?

Perhaps what you consider "optimized" I consider "typical" and what you consider "never" I consider "often enough."

Or perhaps you never play in the 1st-8th level range at all. Could be, since you're comfortable talking about optimal builds with monster races and ECL.

But hey, play a non-standard game, expect non-standard performance from standard feats.

Still not the fault of Power Attack.




P.S. It's All Power Attack, All the Time.

 

[Klaus]

Option:

Limit Power Attack to match Combat Expertise (i.e., max penalty of -5 or BAB, whichever is lower).

 

[frankthedm]

Perhaps it will be replaced with brutal swing from Saga

Brutal Swing (Str 13) -2 to hit, +1d8 damage.

I think we have our answer

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Perhaps it will be replaced with brutal swing from Saga

Brutal Swing (Str 13) -2 to hit, +1d8 damage.

Snooo-zers. I'm assuming that since most characters will only be getting one attack per round, they are going to be dealing more damage (otherwise we may as well retire the fighter types for good). That seriously needs to scale with level to be worthwhile.

 

[helium3]

Why do people keep saying that? Does everyone really think that their table is the only one that matters?

No. That's not what they're saying. What they're saying is that Tweet's article speaks as if Power Attack is so hideously and terribly broken that the every game suffers under it's yoke. Which just isn't true. The feat is only a problem in the way he's claiming it is if you have a player that is (a) a hyper optimizer who (b) takes forever to make a decision. For most groups it isn't a problem.

In a sense, that sums up many of the criticisms about the way the need for 4E as a product is being "proven." Essentially, a designer will make a hyperbolic case for how some portion of 3.X is "horribly broken and makes the entire game suffer under its yoke" and then presents a very vague solution for the supposed problem, with the additional assurance that the fully detailed solution "rocks" and will "knock our socks off" when the game is released next year.

Many of the "serious design flaws of 3.X" that the designers have used the general routine described above for, are really only problems in special cases involving certain types of generally undesirable players or matters of personal taste. I would certainly put Tweet's issues with Power Attack in that category.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think Tweet is overreacting. I've used, and DM'd, 3.5 PA in many games, and in no case did I find it broken, nor did it slow the game down any more than any other damage mechanic in the game.

...

I'm starting to see too much from the 4E team that seems like they are changing what isn't broken just for the sake of change.

It's nice that you never saw it cause a slowdown. But given that lots of people in this thread have said that they did see it cause slowdowns, accusing this of being a "change for change's sake" is more than a bit inappropriate. Obviously, it's been a problem for some people; the fact that you weren't one of them doesn't mean it's not something that needs to be addressed.

 

[Wolfspider]

Power Attack has never given me or my group any problems, balance-wise or math-wise, in any incarnation.

It's really rather shocking for me to hear about spreadsheets and how hard the math is and the other things that have been mentioned in this thread about the negative aspects of Power Attack.

Quite eye-opening, in fact.

I'm glad it's never been an issue for me (like the invisible flying wartrolls I always hear about when the "problem" of polymorph comes up...).