Jonathan Tweet denounces Power Attack

[billd91]

The problem is that the tedious calculations actually yield better results in-game. A system should not reward a player for slowing down the game.

I agree, sort of, that a player should not be rewarded for slowing down the game excessively. But I don't think a game that doesn't reward a certain amount of careful deliberation and decision-making is a very interesting one. Might as well be playing Candyland or Uncle Wiggly, something that is completely determined by random selection.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

If you've got someone running specific probabilities at the table, the issue isn't with Power Attack. The issue is with rude players. The same as when the caster doesn't look up his spell until after he's cast it -- or asks the GM what the spell does.

Amen!
I'm in the camp that says power attack is fine. People in my group who use it go with their gut or power attack for all of it on every attack and have not power attacking the exception to the rule.

That said it isn't excellent, because unfortunatley many people don't use it because they aren't comfortable going with their gut and are too concerned about missing, so if it was removed I wouldn't mind, don't think it'd be too hard to come up with a 4e version of it but who knows?

 

[billd91]

It's nice that you never saw it cause a slowdown. But given that lots of people in this thread have said that they did see it cause slowdowns, accusing this of being a "change for change's sake" is more than a bit inappropriate. Obviously, it's been a problem for some people; the fact that you weren't one of them doesn't mean it's not something that needs to be addressed.

But I think it's not at all clear that it's the fault of the feat that the slowdowns occurred rather than the fault of the indecisive or nit-picky players.

 

[helium3]

But I think it's not at all clear that it's the fault of the feat that the slowdowns occurred rather than the fault of the indecisive or nit-picky players.

Well, the feat certainly does allow for it to happen. The question is whether or not that's sufficient enough reason to throw out the feat and replace it with something that's much less complex. I guess the real question to be answered is how much loss of complexity should be tolerated. A couple of people have suggested limiting the choices to none, increments of five or all. That seems like a reasonable compromise to me but would be difficult to justify in terms of flavor.

I'm more interested in the problems people seem to have with monsters using the feat to do extreme amounts of damage beyond what the feat seems to have been intended to allow.

 

[Voadam]

I agree, sort of, that a player should not be rewarded for slowing down the game excessively. But I don't think a game that doesn't reward a certain amount of careful deliberation and decision-making is a very interesting one. Might as well be playing Candyland or Uncle Wiggly, something that is completely determined by random selection.

I generally play a very deliberate character who gets involved in figuring out plots, making decisions in interacting with NPCs and what to pursue and how to do so.

However when it comes to combat I prefer to have everything figured out before hand and just execute so combat flows quickly and can be more narratively focused than mechanically number focused. I like deciding things like attack this one, move over there, use this type of weapon or spell against this foe. I hate deciding on judging number probabilities such as used for power attack and expertise. The less numbers to think about during combats the happier I am.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

But I think it's not at all clear that it's the fault of the feat that the slowdowns occurred rather than the fault of the indecisive or nit-picky players.

Precisely. If a problem with a mechanic occurs at all tables where it is used, the mechanic is flawed. If the problem occurs only at some tables where it is used, the mechanic may be flawed, or there may be other contributing factors. The solution might be to change the mechanic, or it might be to change something else.

Combat Expertise is just as complicated as Power Attack when it comes to the math involved -- why don't we see complaints about Combat Expertise? Is Combat Expertise not flawed whereas PA is? If so, why are the two mechanics different in play when they are built similarly?

@Wulf -- You da man! APAATT!!

 

[lkj]

Sorry if it's already been posted, but I didn't see it. Tweet has added an addendum to his blog:

http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/BlogPost.aspx?blogpostid=23612&pagemode=2&blogid=2076


Seems like he's not so much concerned about the slow down as much as how that slow down represents a failure of the feat to capture the flavor he was shooting for.

AD

 

[lkj]

Precisely. If a problem with a mechanic occurs at all tables where it is used, the mechanic is flawed. If the problem occurs only at some tables where it is used, the mechanic may be flawed, or there may be other contributing factors. The solution might be to change the mechanic, or it might be to change something else.

Combat Expertise is just as complicated as Power Attack when it comes to the math involved -- why don't we see complaints about Combat Expertise? Is Combat Expertise not flawed whereas PA is? If so, why are the two mechanics different in play when they are built similarly?

@Wulf -- You da man! APAATT!!

Funny you should mention Combat Expertise. Tweet mentions it as well in his blog addendum . . .

AD

 

[JoeGKushner]

Yep, just like people feel that WotC releasing 4th Ed is a personal, vindictive move to rape their wallets and ruin their gaming experience…

Now see, here we have the word rape used in context of 4e bashers.

Yet when someone says something like 4e apologists, it's a group attack.

The mods need to make sure to hit both sides of this fence nicely. Getting a little rep on other boards for the pro 4e fandom.

 

[BryonD]

It damn well better! They are playing Profits or Pink Slips with Hasbro. It plays a lot like Papers and Paychecks, but Hasbro is the frenzied berserker with a +5 Job-Bane, Mighty Cleaving Great Axe. If the profits don’t show, lots of folks and their friends will be out of jobs.

I am 100% on board with them doing everything they can to make 4E as profitable as they can. As long as honesty stays in play.

But if they were not shooting straight before then they have already lost that and they "damn well better" not start bending the truth now. The double standards that have cropped up here and there are a bad thing any way you slice it.