Jonathan Tweet denounces Power Attack

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well, suppose there's a replacement for Power Attack that works in a similar fashion, but with a fixed amount, as others have suggested.

As I suggested earlier, I think we will indeed see something like Brutal Swing: -2, +1d8 damage.

-2, +1d8 works for me, if and only if the +1d8 gets multiplied on a crit.

Of course we don't know how crits are changing overall. (sigh)

If indeed they're reducing all crits to 20/x2 (hinted at only through SAGA, as far as I know) then I don't see the need to "roll the dice twice" anymore. At that point, they've dumbed down crits (yes, I said it!) to the point where it's easier to go back to "Add up all the dice and double the amount."

Indeed if all crits are x2, +1d8 is probably superior to any version of PA.

 

[Wolfspider]

1) It doesn't feel like a wild, brutal swing.

2) It breaks the immersion of roleplaying as you determine the number.

3) Why have something as simple as swinging really hard be something you have so much control over and can fine tune like that?

1) It does to me, but that is a subjective thing. Which I guess is my point.

2) "Immersion of roleplaying"? That's amusing. Then I guess rolling all those dice when you hit someone with a fireball or doing any calculations at all does the same thing. D&D is a system, and a rather complex one, so if you're going to talk about how numbers and calculcations disrupt roleplaying, then you are going to have to criticize D&D quite highly in this regard--along with Hero, Exalted, Shadowrun, and just about every RPG out there that involves numbers (which, I warrant, is the vast majority of them).

In any case, I doubt that the "immersion of roleplaying" is going to be damaged very much at all by Power Attack, especially when players are dusting Cheeto powder off their fingers before they roll dice or move their little counters/miniatures around a map grid while juggling 2-liters of Mountain Dew and PHBs.

3) Ask a batter on a professional baseball team. Or a golfer.

 

[mmadsen]

Let me suggest that the smarter your players are, the less they indulge in behavior that bogs down the flow of play, even if it means a slight loss in their own character's effectiveness...

That's the difference between wisdom and intelligence.

 

[Mallus]

That's the difference between wisdom and intelligence.

I do believe you're right...

 

[mmadsen]

For the people perplexed by where the complex math comes into play, I thought I'd reiterate the point that choosing how much to power attack is a well-defined math problem, and that choosing without doing the math is often quite counterproductive -- or has no real effect except to complicate things.

Power attack is most useful when (a) the attacker has a high probability of hitting, and (b) the attacker does not normally do much damage.

As this damage per attack spreadsheet points out -- assuming a single attack at -1 to hit for +1 to damage -- power attacking does not makes much difference once an attacker is doing serious damage.

For instance, an attacker doing 1d8+4 damage and hitting his target on a natural 10 or higher averages 4.68 points of damage per attack (not hit), and power attacking by one increases that to 4.75, for 2 percent more damage. Power attacking by one more then decreases that to 4.72.

An analytical player may be tempted to spend an inordinate amount of time calculating such values at the table, and a non-analytical player may be tempted to make demonstrably terrible -- but seemingly appropriate and fun -- decisions.

 

[BryonD]

An interesting side effect of that is that I would lay good odds that the PCs have only succeeded in overall lowering their average damage by playing PA that way. If you don't play the numbers with PA, it is a very sub-par feat. If you do play the numbers, its a good feat, but slows down play.

Actually, I have no clue if they have increased or decreased total damage output.

However, I am 100% certain that they have strongly increased total fun produced. And that is how I measure a quality feat.

 

[Stalker0]

An interesting side effect of that is that I would lay good odds that the PCs have only succeeded in overall lowering their average damage by playing PA that way. If you don't play the numbers with PA, it is a very sub-par feat. If you do play the numbers, its a good feat, but slows down play.

That's using the assumption that you should power attack all the time, which is completely bogus.

Power Attack is useful in a variety of situations:

1) Smashing through objects
2) On a coup de grace for maximum assurance of death.
3) Against mooks with crap AC, to assure death with a single swing and guarrantee cleaves.
4) When a creature's AC has been lowered, or my attacks have been increased (prone, flatfooted vs big spell buffs to attack rolls).
5) Combined with mounted combat, lance charging, etc.
6) Vs a guy with heavy DR.
7) Vs a guy where only a 20 can hit anyway.

People are under the impression that for power attack to be useful it has to be good on every swing, and that's certainly not true of most feats in the game, but its very useful in certain situations.

Further, while mechanically PA is not always good to use, it does have a huge cinematic factor. As others have mentioned, you don't always remember the misses, but you will tell stories about the time you did 200+ damage to a BBEG with a single swing and took him out.

If doing the math on PA slows your game down, then stop doing the math Just pick a number and ride with it.

 

[frankthedm]

Power Attack is useful in a variety of situations:

1) Smashing through objects

PA'ing a solid object should be a great way to break something, namely the weapon being swung.

5) Combined with mounted combat, lance charging, etc.

One trick ponies dealing 100+ damage only because they are mounted is a bug, not a feature. Thankfully the extra 1D8 of power attack's suspected replacement won't be multiplied, ending, at least in part, the dire need of killing mounts from underneath their rider's.

6) Vs a guy with heavy DR.

Maybe it is only me, but IMHO i think it is far more satisfying beating a werewolf to death with a silver goblet than power attacking through DR.

7) Vs a guy where only a 20 can hit anyway.

If putting up a good defense only encourages a foe to swing more wildly, that sounds like a bug, not a feature.

If doing the math on PA slows your game down, then stop doing the math Just pick a number and ride with it.

Unfortunately not everyone has the option to force that onto their group.

 

[Klaus]

And what if Power Attack worked like the monk's Decisive Strike from the PHBII?

Full-Round Action. Make one attack at -2 to hit. If you hit, you deal double damage.

 

[frankthedm]

And what if Power Attack worked like the monk's Decisive Strike from the PHBII?

Full-Round Action. Make one attack at -2 to hit. If you hit, you deal double damage.

Because I have strong doubts there will much multiplication beyond critical hits. 4e will be balancing characters fairly carefully to keep any one character from running away with damage output. Multiplication of effects generally a hard thing to balance in any game.

Now I suspect there will be an ability to take -5 {or -8] to hit and take a second attack[both with penalty], but that still requires 2 successful attack rolls to get that doubled damage output. I also could see the smash attack return in the 20th to 30th level range “-x to hit, add your STR score to damage”, but directly multiplying damage would favor “already built to do scads of damage” character far too much.